Selling Public LandHR 621 and 622: Do We All Agree that Jason Chaffetz is a Coward?

[onpoint]

The Democratic party never came after my guns, even while controlling the Exec and Legislative branches. The GOP began mounting an assault on the reason I (speaking for myself) own guns within a week of assuming the same power. Attempting to downplay this fact by sanitizing the conversation in order to not alienate perspective allies who choose to inhabit the offending bunch is a non starter for me.
tjones..... something about "not playing nice when I get punched in the mouth".

 

[Oneye]

This push is going to take more than a party line. I agree the Republican Party is fully to blame here, but we also need a lot of republicans on our side to win this fight.

 

[onpoint]

This push is going to take more than a party line. I agree the Republican Party is fully to blame here, but we also need a lot of republicans on our side to win this fight.

I agree, we will need folks on both sides to cooperate with us. That being said, the guy (and gals) on the right that can't take the heat from the flames sent their general direction, probably shouldn't have chosen to get so close to the fire. They chose to play in the big leagues.
Trust and respect is earned. They can garner either/and/or from me if they take some stands and carry through outside their party's general line.

Don't forget, the reason we have to ask for their cooperation is because they've already exhibited apathy and/or opposition to "our side".

 

[OriginalOscar]

I agree, we will need folks on both sides to cooperate with us. That being said, the guy (and gals) on the right that can't take the heat from the flames sent their general direction, probably shouldn't have chosen to get so close to the fire. They chose to play in the big leagues.
Trust and respect is earned. They can garner either/and/or from me if they take some stands and carry through outside their party's general line.

Don't forget, the reason we have to ask for their cooperation is because they've already exhibited apathy and/or opposition to "our side".

The left is on my side of one issue; PLT. Grew up rural, blue collar and union. Democrats abandoned all three of those pinnacles of my values.

When someone is pushing social and cultural engineering, supporting subversive groups, and not promoting American values of people in the heartland; I'm voting conservative. Sadly the PLT issue has been embraced by the Republican party. Trump's selection of Zinke gives some indication of where he is on the issue. I'll continue to contact my elected officials on the issue.

People on the left should understand elections have consequences and try to pull the Democrats away from the progressive liberal elitist agenda.

 

[onpoint]

The left is on my side of one issue; PLT. Grew up rural, blue collar and union. Democrats abandoned all three of those pinnacles of my values.

When someone is pushing social and cultural engineering, supporting subversive groups, and not promoting American values of people in the heartland; I'm voting conservative. Sadly the PLT issue has been embraced by the Republican party. Trump's selection of Zinke gives some indication of where he is on the issue. I'll continue to contact my elected officials on the issue.

People on the left should understand elections have consequences and try to pull the Democrats away from the progressive liberal elitist agenda.

One more and I'm out....
I also grew up rural, blue collar, no benefit of any union.
I still am rural, compared to most of America. That fact leads to me not really being affected or caring about "social and cultural engineering, subvervise groups", or really even understanding what heartland values are. Except a lot of buzz words - like progressive liberal elitit agenda. Realistically that stuff doesn't affect me in the "American Heartland". Really, it doesn't. What a shock.
The whole reason I do what I do for a living, why I live where I live ,and why I live how I live is tied intricately to our uniquely American public lands (and all they provide) heritage. This "PLT" issue affects me for real. Period.
So I'm standing firm for ALL I care about, just like everybody else in this country who is doggedly sticking to whatever it is they hold onto.
So I guess we're all a bunch of rednecks deep down.......

 

[BuzzH]

When someone is pushing social and cultural engineering, supporting subversive groups, and not promoting American values of people in the heartland; I'm voting conservative. Sadly the PLT issue has been embraced by the Republican party. Trump's selection of Zinke gives some indication of where he is on the issue. I'll continue to contact my elected officials on the issue.

I will say that you're well qualified to talk about social and cultural engineering having lived in Utah...its the classic example of how a single entity in Utah has clearly done both to a large majority of its population that reside there. And that's no badge of honor, by the way.

Also, you'd be equally qualified to talk of subversive groups/individuals...Utah the spawning ground of Ken Ivory, Don Peay, Rob Bishop, Jason Chaffetz, Mike Lee, Herbert, groups like SFW, ALC. Need I say more or are those groups and individuals sufficient to clearly define subversive?

Its not sad the Republican Party has adopted TPL...its their true, bought and paid for, colors showing. Simple as that.

They bought in...they can attempt to defend their position. Good luck with that, they're going to need it.

 

[onpoint]

Hmmm....
So "American heartland values" could actually be perceived as "social and cultural engineering" and "subversive groups"..........
Well played......

 

[Tikka06]

Buzz is spot on about the party position. They bought in, and are alienating a large portion of their party by doing so. Pretty much what I just finished sending my house rep and senator. Push this through for the party, and watch a bunch of outdoorsmen and women vote Democrat in 2 years. Esp since every form of outdoor media is dragging the repubs through the mud daily. Which they deserve IMHO.

 

[OriginalOscar]

I will say that you're well qualified to talk about social and cultural engineering having lived in Utah...its the classic example of how a single entity in Utah has clearly done both to a large majority of its population that reside there. And that's no badge of honor, by the way.

Also, you'd be equally qualified to talk of subversive groups/individuals...Utah the spawning ground of Ken Ivory, Don Peay, Rob Bishop, Jason Chaffetz, Mike Lee, Herbert, groups like SFW, ALC. Need I say more or are those groups and individuals sufficient to clearly define subversive?

Its not sad the Republican Party has adopted TPL...its their true, bought and paid for, colors showing. Simple as that.

They bought in...they can attempt to defend their position. Good luck with that, they're going to need it.

Have the courage to use the term Mormon rather than "single entity". That "entity" you refer to has enabled Utah to be a model of success; quality of life, economy, opportunity. I will wear Utah as a badge of honor.

Agreed many of our elected officials are right of center and I wish they would move away from the PLT goal.

What is WY doing about your $360M education budget shortfall? Are you as passionate and knowing about other issues in WY or only land use and conservation?

Troy Rushton

 

[Oneye]

Guys we can discuss these differences another time. Aim your heat, temper, and energy towards the people trying to screw us over right now. We have two more years before we vote again. Today we just need to stay aligned and fight this.

 

[Elkmagnet]

.

What is WY doing about your $360M education budget shortfall? Are you as passionate and knowing about other issues in WY or only land use and conservation?

I can tell you that there are other ways to make up for shortfalls.
Serious question
How much of our public lands would we have to give the church to have this go away?

 

[joelhunter]

Admittedly, I don't have time to read this entire thread, but I am concerned we still have ice skates on trying to tackle football players on turf, if you don't mind that I borrow an analogy. I appreciate the genuine calls to action, and signed the TRCP petition, wrote to my Rep separately, and will call him as well. That being said, I have been kicking around an idea for a bit, but right now it is still just an idea.

When are we going to find good Congressmen to sponsor an act entitled "The Protection of Our National Heritage of Public Access Act" or something similar, which puts the other guys on the defensive? Things to be considered, a law requiring that for any lands disposed of from the federal public lands must have public public access rights that "run with the land" in perpetuity at a level greater to or equal to the level prior to disposal (and not some crazy last minute shifted denial of access just prior to sale, but what we have now). Also, a due process procedure which allows for public standing for litigation of any change of the status of public access that carries with it a fee shifting provision--both attorney fees and costs--to be born by the owner who impedes or restricts access. I'm sure there would be other great things to put in there, but these are the leading two that come to mind.

Please take this for what it is, an idea in its early stage. But that being said, I've read a lot of law, and drafted a lot of decisions commenting on the law. This is something that could work on several levels.

 

[OriginalOscar]

Guys we can discuss these differences another time. Aim your heat, temper, and energy towards the people trying to screw us over right now. We have two more years before we vote again. Today we just need to stay aligned and fight this.

Well stated. That said the bias towards the LDS church which many on this site imply or outright state is bigoted. The reason Salt Lake has pristine areas 15 minutes from the valley is because those Mormons respect and cherish what god created. It wasn't the federal government; it was the residents of Salt Lake (mostly Mormons) protecting the Wasatch Mountains over 100 years ago.

How much of our public lands would we have to give the church to have this go away?

Elkmagnet really?

 

[BuzzH]

dukes_daddy,

Sent you a pm...but...since you seem unable to let it go.

Nobody has a bias toward the LDS Church...you're just living in denial, friend. You rail on about cultural and social engineering, subversive groups, and your STATE is the perfect example of both. To the point its harming its own citizens. To the point that they threaten my public lands via their elected officials. Sorry, but if the shoe fits...you wear it. Facts are not biased...they are what they are.

You don't see my denying that my State of residence, along with its elected officials, farm bureau, and stockgrowers jacked up the wolf delisting. The cultural and social fabric of Wyoming drove the decision making process.

Lay out an argument to me that Utah and its elected officials are not subversive to the DWR there, to the Federal Land Management agencies. That your elected officials didn't start this whole PLT bullchit.

Its important to self reflect every once in a while...and those leading the charge for PLT are from Utah. That's not by accident, its no coincidence, the people that represent Utah are a product of their social and cultural behavior.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/26/utah-mormons-prescription-painkiller-addiction

“We have a catastrophe now in Utah with opiate overdoses,” said Dan Snarr, a member of the high priest group leadership within the LDS church whose son, Denver, died of a prescription drug overdose at the age of 25 after becoming hooked on painkillers following a rugby injury.

“The LDS church is a big part of it. I go to church every week and I see where the challenge is. They make people feel that they should be perfect and they feel inferior, like they can’t live up to the standards of what they expect them to live up to. So they start using prescription painkillers not to address pain, physical pain, but the mental issues that go along with feeling inferior. That you just cannot cope with all the things you’re expected to be and to do.”

I think my sister found the medication helped with the physical pain but it also eased emotional pain,” said Vincent. “In Utah we have a phenomenon known as toxic perfectionism. There’s a belief amongst members of the LDS church that you need to be perfect. It’s keeping up with the Joneses times 10.”

 

[Flatland Crusoe]

Well stated. That said the bias towards the LDS church which many on this site imply or outright state is bigoted. The reason Salt Lake has pristine areas 15 minutes from the valley is because those Mormons respect and cherish what god created. It wasn't the federal government; it was the residents of Salt Lake (mostly Mormons) protecting the Wasatch Mountains over 100 years ago.

I think its pretty hard to ignore the historic and demographic reasons why Utah is such a hot bed of public land transfer. The population republican/democratic split is 59%/26% which is one of the most significant in the country and at the state rep level its 4 republicans for every democrat. Utah has the highest weekly church attendance rate (51%) in the country by state with 60% of the population identifying as Mormon with a super majority being Mormon in rural Utah. Between these 2 influences you have what has to be the most homogeneous demographic of any state. Once you combine these 2 factors with the reason for Mormon settlement in Utah was to get away from outside influences it isn't' really a surprise that its where public land transfer has taken hold the strongest.

The public land transfer movement isn't really a popular decree, but rather a fringe movement that has worked by integrating larger and more influential organizations. Start by winning the hearts and minds of rural utah, then extend that to the state of Utah and then the RNC at the national level. It doesn't really work in neighboring states like Colorado or Nevada because you have such large differences between the rural and urban demographics and politics of those states. None of this is to say that Mormons inherently favor land transfer in a purely ideological world or are poor stewards of the land, but the practical political science of the matter says otherwise.

This is definitely a time for unity rather than in fighting, but it seems the population of Utah has fallen victim to the quote "The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men DoNothing"

 

[mfb99]

It is good to see an energetic and large response to this issue of selling OUR public lands.

A couple of action ideas, some already mentioned.

1) Call, call, call and call again you Congressmen and women.
2) Spread the word on Social Media
3) Find common ground with others regardless of party - don't look for differences, look for common ground - don't name call - let people have their view
4) Give money to causes that are in the fight, even a couple dollars will help
5) Physical protest, make a sign and get on a corner somewhere, organize and become visible
6) Use leaders in our sport to champion our cause - Randy of course, but others who I may not know
7) Try to communicate our fight to the businesses who sell to hunters. Gun manufactures, outdoor clothing manufactures, equipment manufactures etc. Get them in the fight.
8) Lastly, yes get in front of the bulldozer if it comes to that. I am not as worried about California where I live, I am confident we will never sell our public lands, but I worry very much for Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah and Wyoming. Regardless of what state, show support for all states.

Mark

 

[Elkmagnet]

.

Elkmagnet really?

I poke you eye with stick, see if you blink. You blink, you OK!

I live in a predominantly Mormon town and married a girl out of a LDS family. My opinion is that Mormon people as individuals are usually some of the nicest, kind hearted most charitable individuals I cross paths with. That's not a coincidence. I have participated in most of the services/functions the church will allow a non member to participate in. I have made an opinion based on my experiences.
The problem I come across with individual members is a lack of diversity of Opinion's and strong anti federal government feelings.
We are all a product of our environment.

The church on the other hand I believe it is a growing giant.

With 15,634,000 members it is the largest anti federal government group I know of.
It happens to be one of the top 5 biggest land owners in the country.
It's members are the ones who I see consistently calling to strip the federal government of power/land.
The church is poised and ready to buy large chunks of public land as it becomes available.
The voting demographics that buzz has laid out also apply to southern and eastern Idaho where a strong Mormon vote controls the house and Senate.
Land is power. It is my opinion that the LDS Church is working to become more powerful than the federal government. Do you want the church to own more land in the US then the public does? 70% of our national water supply comes from public lands. That's a lot of power by itself.
Being critical of the Mormon Church is not bigotry, I find it funny you suggest so.

 

[James Riley]

Some folks were concerned about clean drinking and irrigation water because they had salt to the west. Not real big lovers of God's Creation unless it was for man's exploitation.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Hey, as much as I enjoy and participate in good discussions on the LDS Church and the politics of Utah (Proud Great-Great-Great Grandson of a Territorial Senator who made the deal with the Feds for Utah Statehood, holla!!), we need to keep this thread focused on bashing a SINGLE Mormon, Jason Chaffetz, perhaps the biggest coward in DC.

Here is the map of what they are wanting to do in Utah. From Top to Bottom, they are selling land that has "no value to the taxpayers" to fulfill Jason Chaffetz, perhaps the biggest coward in DC, wet dream.

 

[grizzly_]