Scouting services in crosshairs

[MTGomer]

I do not speak for BHA, but their mission is not limited to access. In addition, the text of the bill indicates the purpose is mostly to prevent the sale of info on public land, which would hurt backcountry hunting opportunities. That seems well within their mission.

What I thought would have been well within the mission would have been a blank check to the Rob Gregoire defense fund, taking away the need for him to rely on a GoFundMe, when he fought for all of us on the east face of the Crazies.
Those are the kinds of things I'd like to see more of from any organization that says they're fighting for our access.
To me, that would be a lot more meaningful than throwing weight around legislating ethics.
And I do find selling/buying coordinates disgusting.. as you can see by the feathers ruffled over on the rok.

 

[MTGomer]

Yes the "backpack hunt for prairie dog" crowd .

tell me that's not a thing..........

 

[jryoung]

https://www.backcountryhunters.org/our_issues

 

[PrairieHunter]

This has been going on for years with sheep in Montana. Pictures of huge rams passed around at events like the sheep show to drive auction tag prices up and bring clients to those outfitters who have the crew, score, and gps coordinates of these record sheep. John Lewton was once the target of the most bizarre under cover sting operation in the history of state wildlife departments and which this kind of thing was going on.

I don't really see these new services as anything new, they just went beyond extremely sought after animals like sheep.

What about pronghorn guide service? They do the same thing just more discretely but most give them a pass.

As mentioned even services like hunting fool are in a gray area sometimes as are many outfitters who cater to auction/governors/commissioners type tags where one animal can drive up the price of those tags as it's pics and location are passed around.

 

[Bambistew]

To clarify, I think that and paying a guide to take you to a specific animal is similar, and I don't think much of an argument could be made that there is a meaningful difference between the chit that goes on in the breaks for big rams and the website example above. I just think this is a good start.

Agree, but they will protect that industry... watch, they will amend the bill.

Kind of like using a drone to scout = bad, but using a plane = no problem.

I brought this up with the BOG here in AK last year when that hunt app came out. They are planning on moving on eliminating it here in AK, last I talked with them.

 

[PrairieHunter]

Guiding is regulated as said by others, but also the main thing you are paying for on a guided hunt is logistical help, i.e. getting you there, gear, setting up camp, dealing with your animal, etc. I've yet to see a guiding service anywhere that says pay me 5k then I will text you the GPS coords of where I am, once you figure out how to get yourself here I will show you an animal then my job is done.

As a general rule I agree, but there are a select few outfitters in each state who cater to extremely high end clients who when shown pictures and locations of record book animals will choose to purchase governors/auction/commissioners type tags. What they have been doing could be viewed as very similar to what these new services are doing with regards to specific animals location and score being given to clients in exchange for $. Many even use social media to share the pics and estimated scores of these animals before the season looking for potential clients.

Where do you draw the line?

 

[RobG]

What I thought would have been well within the mission would have been a blank check to the Rob Gregoire defense fund, taking away the need for him to rely on a GoFundMe, when he fought for all of us on the east face of the Crazies.
Those are the kinds of things I'd like to see more of from any organization that says they're fighting for our access.
To me, that would be a lot more meaningful than throwing weight around legislating ethics.
And I do find selling/buying coordinates disgusting.. as you can see by the feathers ruffled over on the rok.

I actually had long discussions with BHA and PLWA about just that. After consulting with PLWA, well after I got the ticket, it was me who advised BHA not to get involved with directly supporting my case, but to support the larger efforts outside of my case including negotiations and lawsuits against landowners if necessary. The reasons are very complicated, but don't blame BHA for not writing a blank check for me... that was my advice to them. If you didn't know, I donated over $1000 of my excess GFM funds to Montana BHA and they have done research on the trails and are participating in the negotiations to open up the east side trails, including the one I got ticketed on. And I owe all of you an update on that.

 

[RobG]

Didn’t BHA say that they were a public access organization when asked for their stance on the grizzly bear delisting? That’s a serious question. I can’t remember for sure, but I thought I read that.

If the question was directed at me, I don't know.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

tell me that's not a thing..........

Not to my knowledge but with that crew you had to think about it, haha

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

As a general rule I agree, but there are a select few outfitters in each state who cater to extremely high end clients who when shown pictures and locations of record book animals will choose to purchase governors/auction/commissioners type tags. What they have been doing could be viewed as very similar to what these new services are doing with regards to specific animals location and score being given to clients in exchange for $. Many even use social media to share the pics and estimated scores of these animals before the season looking for potential clients.

Where do you draw the line?

Agreed, I don't see a huge difference between what Mossback and Robby Denning are doing in terms of providing locations of animals. I think both of them are commoditizing a public resource, there are laws restricting the sale of game meat and in some states that restrict the sale of other animal parts in order to protect the resource. These laws recognize an individual should not be able to profit from the sale of wildlife, which is owned by the public. The vast majority of guides are providing a service not selling a commodity.

(I'm not making any other comparisons between Mossback and Denning, I'm aware of the various Mossback shenanigans and I'm not saying Denning does anything like that)

 

[mountainhawks]

If this has already been shared, I apologize. This is an app that was being pushed hard here in Nevada last summer and I know it perked the interest of the State Wildlife Commission. I'm unclear on whether or not they acted on it in the form of new regulations but my hope is that they did (I'll look into it). The site is a bit clunky and I just briefly clicked around but it appears that there is a function to sell/buy the real time locations of big game animals with photos.

https://www.prehunt.com/

My hope is that services like this are regulated to the point of non-existence. As long as its an open market and there is money to be made, the advancements in technology will continue to a laughable and terrifying point (if they aren't already).

 

[Topgun 30-06]

If this has already been shared, I apologize. This is an app that was being pushed hard here in Nevada last summer and I know it perked the interest of the State Wildlife Commission. I'm unclear on whether or not they acted on it in the form of new regulations but my hope is that they did (I'll look into it). The site is a bit clunky and I just briefly clicked around but it appears that there is a function to sell/buy the real time locations of big game animals with photos.

https://www.prehunt.com/

My hope is that services like this are regulated to the point of non-existence. As long as its an open market and there is money to be made, the advancements in technology will continue to a laughable and terrifying point (if they aren't already).

That's the biggie out on the net right now doing it, but there are also individuals actually selling packages with an individual animal's pictures, GPS location, etc. and the price of the package depends on the size of the animal. I won't name the other website and it's owner, but there are plenty of members here that post on it, including BigFin.

 

[NYyotekiller]

I’m all for not allowing these type of big game location services.

I just briefly navigated around the prehunt.com site Long enough to know that it’s something that I’d never be interested in doing with paying for a location on a big game animal. Seems like it’s the exact as a canned hunt to me.

 

[hossblur]

I held off for a day to read.

Im horrified by what is going on. Perhaps too naive, but the shit show that became the year of spider bull was my awakening. I've never rooted for an animal as hard as I did that bull. Planes, choppers, paid finders, a clown show of "guides". The tag holder "getting a call" when they found him. It disgusted me. Forward to last year. Again naive I guess but I learned that monster muleys owner had a side gig selling "scouting packages". After a week of going hard at him he let me know I could leave. Obviously I didn't. I listen to podcasts where 1 outfitter brags about running 125 trail cams. Most are video. Mossback crap is legendary. I watched Modern Warfare. GPS bullets, self aiming guns. It was like an alarm ringing in my head. How long until that's on the shows, in mags? All over YouTube? How long until real time cams? Sat imagery that can single animal I'd? The sad part to me is "well you use a scope" somehow is a an argument. "Your dad showed you spots"? The fact that this is becoming normalized is horrendous. Can any of you imagine the ads kicking your grandpa would put on you for buying a location? How do you explain to a non hunter, forget anti hunter, that killing a big deer is worth $1400 just for a location. I can't believe it myself, and I've hunted 42yrs.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Chesapeake]

That same spider bull type nonsense goes on in Washington any year a record animal is located. Rams, Goats, Bulls, and Bucks are located prior to raffles and auctions and the buyers buy those tags with an animal already targeted. Different rich guy, but same shenanigans.

Folks support those auction tags due the conservation funding they bring, but they've just devolved into the pimping out of our wildlife. These "scouting packages" are a big part of that pimping out from both the outfitter and non-outfitter side.

 

[Mallardsx2]

This shit makes me sick.

 

[squirrel]

Guiding is regulated as said by others, but also the main thing you are paying for on a guided hunt is logistical help, i.e. getting you there, gear, setting up camp, dealing with your animal, etc. I've yet to see a guiding service anywhere that says pay me 5k then I will text you the GPS coords of where I am, once you figure out how to get yourself here I will show you an animal then my job is done.

That's because they are just a smidge more discreet so as to not irritate their less well heeled clients. Do you actually think if there is a huge bull up secret creek that any first year blue collar guy is going up secret creek when next week "Daddy big Bucks" who tips more than blue collar guy pays is due into camp?

Good thing it is bitter cold today, these threads always end up resembling a poll of <5'6"NBA guys voting on whether dunking should be illegal, but they do amuse.

This is not hard to stop, but nobody wants to get rid of the turd, they just want to pick it up by the "clean end".

 

[rtraverdavis]

This is not hard to stop, but nobody wants to get rid of the turd, they just want to pick it up by the "clean end".

Care to elaborate? I'm honestly curious.

 

[squirrel]

Sure rtraverdavis, via pm

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

That's because they are just a smidge more discreet so as to not irritate their less well heeled clients. Do you actually think if there is a huge bull up secret creek that any first year blue collar guy is going up secret creek when next week "Daddy big Bucks" who tips more than blue collar guy pays is due into camp?

This is still inherently different that just selling XY coords of a specific animal, that guide is providing a service not a good. Further the guide couldn't sell the same bull to 50 different "Daddy Big Bucks". Guiding is different because there are a limited number of guides and a guide can only take so many hunters in a season.

Scouting services can sell locations to an unlimited number of hunters and anyone could start their own service.