School/Mass shootings what's the answer?

[glass eye]

I haven't read through any of this thread so maybe someone already said this; After 9/11 nobody complained about air marshals being on planes, so why are they against protecting our kids with armed guards ? Trying to ban guns as the solution is like trying to ban muslims from boarding planes rather than having air marshals.

 

[Straight Arrow]

Multiple people I know, a couple of which are active duty military, claim this shooting to have been a false flag designed to control the masses, and that no kids were killed. What we are seeing on TV are crisis actors. It’s strange to see.

Nameless Range, if you agree with Lawnboy's statement, why would you even post that nonsense?! And how would "a couple of which are active duty military" have any standing regarding a tragedy so remote from their duty?
Your intent is puzzling ... perhaps disgusting. WTH!

 

[Nameless Range]

Whoa, Straight Arrow. I posted that because I am disgusted/perplexed how someone could believe those conspiracies. Are you under the impression I was giving credence to those holding those ridiculous beliefs? If so I just wasn't clear.

I think kids were murdered by another kid the other day. I do not believe there is a conspiracy surrounding this shooting. I don't understand how some of my friends, who I do hold in high regard(which is why I mentioned they were in the military), could believe otherwise. I agree with Lawnboy that espousing that garbage is incredibly disrespectful to the victims and their families.

Are we on the same page?

 

[RobG]

I haven't read through any of this thread so maybe someone already said this; After 9/11 nobody complained about air marshals being on planes, so why are they against protecting our kids with armed guards ? Trying to ban guns as the solution is like trying to ban muslims from boarding planes rather than having air marshals.

The school had an armed guard but he didn’t make it to the scene, although he might have been off campus. It would have made little difference as the killer shot 31 people in only 6 minutes. You can’t even get across Bozeman High School in 6 minutes.

At the Pulse Night Club 107 people were shot in about 10 minutes, and there was an armed guard that tried to stop him but had to back off. What can a guard do? start shooting at the killer with all the kids in the hall? Most of these killers are suicidal anyway.

And to think the NRA wants to make suppressors easier to get. With sub-sonic ammo there could be 30 kids shot before anyone even knew what was going on. And note that suppressors (and machines guns) aren’t banned, but they aren’t used in these types of mass shootings. The reason is that only serious people go through the trouble to buy them. On the other hand, I looked at Armslist and there are about 40 semi-automatic rifles with detachable magazines for sale by private parties in Bozeman alone. You don’t even need a background check to buy one of these so it is little wonder so many psychopaths have one.

 

[RobG]

By the way, I'm not against armed guards at schools, and one of the schools I went to 30 years ago did have a police officer (I think he was armed).


Here is something I wrote... think about it, tear it apart.
-----------------------------
Like many gun owners I grew up in a time when we didn’t have mass shootings even though guns were in the trucks at school. It is tempting to blame societal changes for the increase, but the truth is violent crimes are about half of what they were 30-40 years ago.

Furthermore, the psychopath has always been around. The infamous 1966 Texas tower attacker used a bolt action rifle to murder 17 people in a 90 minute period. What has changed is the availability of semi-automatic weapons using detachable high capacity magazines. Back “in the day” very few people even knew such combinations were legal.

These weapons enabled Cruz to murder 17 people in 6 minutes, not 90; the 27 murders at Sandy Hook took only 5 minutes. 107 people were shot in about 10 minutes at the Pulse Night Club, 49 of them fatally. These shootings happen so fast that armed guards make little difference.

This is not the first time we have faced the emergence of weapons with such obvious extraordinary potential for mass murder. In 1934 we enacted the National Firearms Act, which characterized machine guns, short barreled shotguns, etc as class III weapons. They weren’t banned; instead, additional vetting and financial commitment were required to own one. As a consequence they aren’t in every nut’s closet, and crimes with these weapons are virtually unheard of.

On the other hand, there is no special vetting for semi-automatic weapons with detachable magazines. In fact, you don’t even need the scant background check for private party transactions, and a popular online gun site currently shows about 40 of these weapons for sale from private parties in the Bozeman area. I don’t like gun regulation, but these weapons need more regulation than zero.

 

[Gut Shot]

"You stabbed him to death. What's wrong with you?"

"You beat him to death with a bat. What's wrong with you?"

"You ran him down with your car. What's wrong with you?"

"You shot him. We need to do something about these guns."

So again, we are back to the evil gun that killed all of these people, not the evil person?

And people talk about the NFA of 1934 that put a tax on certain things that for some reason, someone in government decided needed taxing. Yet they conveniently forget that the Gun Control Act of 1986 banned the import and sale of new full auto firearms. Remember "gun control" isn't about "guns" it's about "control".

Be thankful that most of the people who do these things are stupid and lack imagination or we could really have a bunch of bodies on our hands.

 

[tjones]

I believe 17 qualifies as “a bunch”

 

[Straight Arrow]

Are we on the same page?

Yep, Nameless, we are. Thanks for clarifying; your previous post statements seemed contradictory. I think it's preferable not to give any credence to such nonsense by repeating it. It seemed the military status of those "couple" was mentioned to imply somehow they were more well-informed. As a veteran having worn the Army uniform for over thirty years with a top secret clearance, I know what little I do know ... but moreover, and perhaps more importantly, I realize all that I don't know.

 

[VikingsGuy]

"You stabbed him to death. What's wrong with you?"

"You beat him to death with a bat. What's wrong with you?"

"You ran him down with your car. What's wrong with you?"

"You shot him. We need to do something about these guns."

Riding a bike - no license
Driving a snowmobile - no license
Driving a car - license
Driving a semi-trailer - higher level license
Flying a plane - even higher license requirement
Flying a commercial jet - super high license requirements

Different tools, different rules -- not that a big of an intellectual stretch.

 

[Nameless Range]

Yep, Nameless, we are. Thanks for clarifying; your previous post statements seemed contradictory. I think it's preferable not to give any credence to such nonsense by repeating it. It seemed the military status of those "couple" was mentioned to imply somehow they were more well-informed. As a veteran having worn the Army uniform for over thirty years with a top secret clearance, I know what little I do know ... but moreover, and perhaps more importantly, I realize all that I don't know.

Thanks for responding SA. In rereading what I wrote I can see the confusion. I didn't mention their current employment as evidence that they are "in the know". I know folks in the military are just that - regular folks. I am just stunned at the credulity of some people who in a lot of ways I look up to.

 

[RobG]

"
So again, we are back to the evil gun that killed all of these people, not the evil person?

The person is evil and there is no way to prevent them. so we can't hand the weapons out like candy.

And people talk about the NFA of 1934 that put a tax on certain things that for some reason, someone in government decided needed taxing. Yet they conveniently forget that the Gun Control Act of 1986 banned the import and sale of new full auto firearms. Remember "gun control" isn't about "guns" it's about "control".

It doesn't matter what you call it, the fact is crimes with class III weapons rarely happen now or even before 1986, and furthermore high capacity semi-autos didn't exist for all practical purposes.

Be thankful that most of the people who do these things are stupid and lack imagination or we could really have a bunch of bodies on our hands.

I think we should do more than be thankful someone doesn't take advantage of our effectively non-existent checks on who gets these weapons. I'm willing to bet if you went back to the 70s and 80s even the NRA would agree. It was the 90s when LaPierre took over, and at first he was so extreme they sidelined him to save the organization. Now he has changed the mindset of the gunowner to echo his extreme views. What has changed is the gut reaction of the gunowner so that we think it is normal to have no restrictions on who can buy these weapons.

 

[Gut Shot]

Riding a bike - no license
Driving a snowmobile - no license
Driving a car - license
Driving a semi-trailer - higher level license
Flying a plane - even higher license requirement
Flying a commercial jet - super high license requirements

Different tools, different rules -- not that a big of an intellectual stretch.

That didn't stop a bunch of maniacs from flying commercial jets into buildings.

 

[SisuHunter]

I have not read this whole thread, so I hope I’m not just rehashing what others have said. I don’t think there is a simple solution to the problem, but a combination of multiple approaches is probably necessary. They had the, see something, say something down well, but the follow through to do something is where officials dropped the ball. Maybe we do need armed staff of some sort at schools. These attackers aren’t looking for a fight, they are looking for easy targets. Just the thought of armed staff could be a deterrent. Ohio is arming staff in some districts. That could be a good case study. I hope it works for them. I have heard officers stage at our schools at the beginning and end of the day for sure. I would think that is a deterrent.

One thing for sure, this current generation of students is having to live with fears that I never dreamt of at that age. I wouldn’t have thought that schools were a safe place if this happened when I was in school. Students are holding protests over gun control and I don’t blame them. Many of them are growing up in fear of guns and I have little doubt that when they become our leaders and law makers, gun ownership could be very different..

One thing that makes me sick is the treatment of the father who lost his daughter and he was beat up on social media. One poster said they did not feel sorry for him because he supported Trump. I don’t understand that mentality. How can politics go determine whether you have compassion for someone who suffered such a personal tragedy? That is the kind of warped mentality that raises kids who don’t value human life and are capable of attacks like this.

 

[Gut Shot]

I believe 17 qualifies as “a bunch”

You have no idea...

 

[Gut Shot]

One thing that makes me sick is the treatment of the father who lost his daughter and he was beat up on social media. One poster said they did not feel sorry for him because he supported Trump. I don’t understand that mentality. How can politics go determine whether you have compassion for someone who suffered such a personal tragedy? That is the kind of warped mentality that raises kids who don’t value human life and are capable of attacks like this.

Lets you know who the mentality of the people screaming about gun control.

 

[NoWiser]

Lets you know who the mentality of the people screaming about gun control.

Should we lump all gun owners into the same category, too?

 

[Bamaboy16]

These weapons enabled Cruz to murder 17 people in 6 minutes, not 90; the 27 murders at Sandy Hook took only 5 minutes. 107 people were shot in about 10 minutes at the Pulse Night Club, 49 of them fatally. These shootings happen so fast that armed guards make little difference.

I get what you're saying, in the heat of the moment a security guard may not be able to react in enough time to save more lives. BUT, having multiple armed guards is at least a deterrent in the planning of an attack on a specific venue.

But regarding the school shootings only, these cowards choose schools because it is full of the helpless, they know that there is maybe, MAYBE only one security guard on campus that has the potential to return fire on them.

These 16 and 17 yr olds don't run up to a football stadium line of fans and start opening fire because of the police presence and security guards, at least that's what I believe. I just truly think that these shooters are cowards and if there was a smidgen of resistance in their way at these schools that they would think long and hard about carrying out their attack. At the end of the day they are teenagers, not hardened radicalised adults with military training.

 

[Sytes]

The school had an armed guard but he didn’t make it to the scene, although he might have been off campus. It would have made little difference as the killer shot 31 people in only 6 minutes. You can’t even get across Bozeman High School in 6 minutes.

Far from "little difference", in my opinion. Had the SRO (Broward County Sheriff Deputy) been on campus at the time, one never knows where he would have been at the time the kid (19yo) initiated his insane rampage. Trained for rapid/immediate response, defined knowledge of routing, able to follow the saddened though identifiable path to the suspect.
We have rapid response, frequent joint agency meetings, training as first on scene via live roleplay scenarios. Video interactive 330* screen scenario training, etc. It is a self criticism, peer criticism of each role. It is a valued training setting. SRO's are always involved in these activities.

It's unfortunate the proactive approach of LE protection of our MOST valuable assets, our children - does not have a visual return $$$ value thus overlooked until it has another visual return that sickens our hearts.

I believe retired LEO's, active LEO's need to enhance our protection of our children. Budgets and money from the fairy to fill this void. I believe further research to evaluate concealed carry for volunteer based teachers... Those who would volunteer to serve as Sheriff reserve, my support would go this direction to further enhance our children's protection.

My opinion, perspective, position. Not fact.

 

[Gut Shot]

Should we lump all gun owners into the same category, too?

How many gun owners have you seen on national media, foaming at the mouth and insulting the victims?

 

[RobG]

I get what you're saying, in the heat of the moment a security guard may not be able to react in enough time to save more lives. BUT, having multiple armed guards is at least a deterrent in the planning of an attack on a specific venue.

Probably not, these guys are suicidal. The problem extends beyond schools too. There was a guard at the Pulse Night Club but still the killer was able to shoot 107 people. The limiting factor seems to be people being able to get out of range. I don't want to have the U.S. have airport type security at every public gathering because people think they need unfettered access to these weapons.