Rep Russ Fulcher Public Land open letter.

[BuzzH]

NIFC data.

Suppression Costs | National Interagency Fire Center

www.nifc.gov

 

[Laszlo Cravensworth]

Those prices are hard to know. But there are so few issued for moose, sheep, and goat in every state the amount of funding wouldn't be enough to even pay for fighting fire. Sure a couple sheep tags in Idaho unit 11 maybe worth 300-500k each. The ones in the frank church arent worth anything close to that. Same with wyoming sheep tags.

Plus, the more you flood the market the less valuable they become.

You're thinking f-you money from those tags and its just not there. Combine that with the supply in Canada and Alaska for moose, sheep, goat...nobody is going to pay more for a lower 48 goat tag than what they can pay for in those places.

I cant find exact data for fire suppression costs for Idaho, but the State paid 17.4 million toward suppression on their lands. With fire being interagency, the feds paid 10's of millions more. I bet large project fires could cost 30-40-50 million each.

There isn't enough sheep tags in Idaho to suppress one large fire.

Also, fire isnt the only cost associated with large scale land management. R&D, grazing, logging, mining, recreation, camp grounds, urban interface fuels projects, permitting, vehicles, staff, office buildings, trails, roads.

Your tag money isnt going far.

All of the litigation when the state screws up an EA and CBD sues them...

 

[Treeshark]

Plus, the more you flood the market the less valuable they become.

You don’t have to sell me on the deal, but don’t let that stop you from trying!

 

[Treeshark]

This thread has veered from land management into wildlife management.

One thing I haven’t seen discussed with respect to the actual land management component to this is potential for state size/border adjustment.

If this transfer scenario were to occur and some states become incapable of supporting themselves (some may be at that point currently)- perhaps a redrawing of state lines may be a way for distressed states to remain viable?

 

[Hunting Wife]

One thing I haven’t seen discussed with respect to the actual land management component to this is potential for state size/border adjustment.

If this transfer scenario were to occur and some states become incapable of supporting themselves (some may be at that point currently)- perhaps a redrawing of state lines may be a way for distressed states to remain viable?

Maybe because it’s so outrageously far-fetched as to be untethered from reality?

 

[Treeshark]

Maybe because it’s so outrageously far-fetched as to be untethered from reality?

Moreso than the thought of a complete transfer of all federal land?

 

[Dave N]

One thing I haven’t seen discussed with respect to the actual land management component to this is potential for state size/border adjustment.

If this transfer scenario were to occur and some states become incapable of supporting themselves (some may be at that point currently)- perhaps a redrawing of state lines may be a way for distressed states to remain viable?

 

[Treeshark]

Take it easy, @Dave N.

 

[Dave N]

Take it easy, @Dave N.

It's early yet. I'm sure you can top it eventually.

 

[Treeshark]

It's early yet. I'm sure you can top it eventually.

Surprised to see you slinging barbs.

I’ll take the high road here and skip the easy rebuttal. Hope you’re doing well.

 

[Dave N]

Couldn't help myself. The thought of states selling off land to another state is hilarious. No offense, but you do seem to come up with ideas that lots of people here don't agree with.
I'm out. Time for a grocery run.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Moreso than the thought of a complete transfer of all federal land?

Yes

 

[Treeshark]

Yes

I am trying to identify if there are scenarios in which one could occur without the other. If it requires ridiculous means, that means it’s ridiculous. There is value in identifying that.

How do you foresee states handling that financial burden? Sure they could sell as much as they could, but who’d buy it all?

The common refrain from opponents of transfer is “the states could never afford it!” The reality is, they most certainly could- it’s just that the means of doing so would be extremely unpleasant for many of the people involved. I think opponents of transfer should work to identify just what those means of paying for a transfer may be and highlight that discomfort.

 

[Straight Arrow]

... that means it’s ridiculous.

That phrase encapsulates the essence of this thread. The only other term which comes to mind is "entertaining", so at least thankful for that.

 

[SAJ-99]

The common refrain from opponents of transfer is “the states could never afford it!” The reality is, they most certainly could- it’s just that the means of doing so would be extremely unpleasant for many of the people involved. I think opponents of transfer should work to identify just what those means of paying for a transfer may be and highlight that discomfort.

The fact is YOU keep saying they can afford it but have given no supporting argument for it. "Unpleasant" isn't really a number. Right now ID can "have their cake and eat it too". Citizens get to use the land, graze it at a huge discount rate, and collect some royalties on energy extraction, which I'm sure is substantial for both O&G and renewables. Fulcher bitching about the wind farm neglects to mention the revenue it pays to locals. The numbers matter. Keep in mind, as a part owner of the land, I'm not giving anything away for free. I would rather move to the "let it burn" approach of the 80's.

 

[Treeshark]

The fact is YOU keep saying they can afford it but have given no supporting argument for it.

Do you think states cannot? If so, there is no threat of this and we can all stop worrying about it then right?

 

[TheTone]

Do you think states cannot? If so, there is no threat of this and we can all stop worrying about it then right?

No, because as has been pointed out to you half a million times state transfer is almost certainly just a ploy to eventually get it into private hands. State lands here are getting by sold all the time. A few years ago Idaho department of lands had a big pot of money ear marked for land purchases. It basically went no where because after they made a couple purchases as farmers, ranchers and timber companies complained to the legislature that they couldn’t compete with IDL to buy land

 

[Treeshark]

No, because as has been pointed out to you half a million times state transfer is almost certainly just a ploy to eventually get it into private hands.

How would the state pay for things like fire mitigation in this scenario though? As @Buzz pointed out, they wouldn’t even scratch the surface of being able to foot the bill.

 

[Straight Arrow]

How would the state pay for things like fire mitigation in this scenario though? As @Buzz pointed out, they wouldn’t even scratch the surface of being able to foot the bill.

Skewed logic again in response to TheTone, as those who advocate for the "ploy" don't care about fire mitigation costs or any other costs to the state. It doesn't even cross their "privatization" minds. They just know from history that the states which all seek increased revenues for a vast array of reasons, many not even touched upon in this thread, and most states which have already sold off public lands would do so again. It's a historically demonstrated dynamic.
Nevada is one of the first western examples of a state quickly selling off public land given by the federal government at statehood. It's a dynamic only stifled by increased opposition by those who value public lands and desire to keep it in public hands.

 

[Treeshark]

Skewed logic again in response to TheTone, as those who advocate for the "ploy" don't care about fire mitigation costs or any other costs to the state. It doesn't even cross their "privatization" minds.

What would happen in the event that this occurs then? States just financially implode? Let fires burn themselves out?

If it’s an actually possibility that a large-scale transfer could actually occur, what does this dystopian future look like?