Removing Doug Sayer from Wild Sheep Foundation for Idaho political strong-arming

[LopeHunter]

I can hear, in my mind, Dr. "Red" Duke saying" If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and swims like a duck. It's a duck. I miss "Red". He was a past FNAWS president and regular B&C president. G J

Preach! The only people that thinks this does not smell are those who are holding their nose because they agree with Sayer or are buddies with him. We all know how UT whored out nonresident tags for a failed expo that barely draws in any nonresidents other than college kids in SLC or the guys that are working the booth for a vendor. Is a local event that draws locally and does not fill up the eateries nor the hotel rooms. Corrupt organization, corrupt F&G and corrupt legislature. ID is hopefully smarter but time will tell.

 

[grandejuan]

Who is the puppet master in this mess? Mr Sayer's communications with Gov. Otter indicate that "We" can remove the commissioners and that "We" can appoint these new folks to the commission. Does Otter work for Sayer or does he work for the people of Idaho? To me it sounds like, Sayer says "Jump" and Otter says, " How high." It's obvious who is really calling the shots here. The WSF is back up on its feet after the lawsuit sadness. This guy Sayer will ultimately cause much more damage than Dennis Campbell ever thought of. GJ

 

[huntid73]

I just hope that IDFG continues to listen to the hunters. They did when the auction tag issue was brought up this past year. In a lot of ways I wish the auction and lottery tags still held to the once in a lifetime rule, that way more hunters could get involved, hopefully getting more people fired up about putting more sheep on the mountains.

 

[brymoore]

IDWSF's position statement.

In light of the recent controversy surrounding the article released by the Idaho Wildlife Federation, The Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation would like to inform Idaho’s Sportsman of our position regarding the matter. We have had no involvement in the controversy or its outcome as we are a nonpolitical, volunteer based, NGO that advocates for Idaho’s Wild Sheep. Aside from Bighorn Sheep Conservation issues we do not get involved with the Idaho Legislative process and have always supported the policies of Idaho Fish and Game.

Since our inception in 1985, our mission has been to increase Idaho’s Wild Sheep populations through research, volunteer efforts, and fundraising. The IWSF has successfully facilitated the only statewide raffle tag for Bighorn Sheep and as a result all net proceeds of the tag are given to Idaho Fish and Game for use in Sheep Research and habitat enhancements. We rely on the efforts of dedicated sportsman throughout the state for our success. For information on becoming a member of the Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation please visit our website at www.idahowildsheep.org.

 

[6speed]

The IWSF has successfully facilitated the only statewide raffle tag for Bighorn Sheep

Maybe it's time for another conservation organization to get a chance at selling the one tag?

For information on becoming a member of the Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation please visit our website at www.idahowildsheep.org.

Not a chance.

 

[BigHornRam]

So which is it? Did you decide to give him a pass or decide that it isn't true?

I hadn't read the link by the OP to the IWF news release, and was going off the title of the thread and everyone else's reaction to it. My bad. After reading the IWF link, I concluded that much of this "scandal" is manufactured. My opinion.

 

[BigHornRam]

Is this a SFW Kool aid drinker quote you took off of MM? Because....

Sorry, I don't read MM.

 

[TheTone]

IDWSF's position statement.

In light of the recent controversy surrounding the article released by the Idaho Wildlife Federation, The Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation would like to inform Idaho’s Sportsman of our position regarding the matter. We have had no involvement in the controversy or its outcome as we are a nonpolitical, volunteer based, NGO that advocates for Idaho’s Wild Sheep. Aside from Bighorn Sheep Conservation issues we do not get involved with the Idaho Legislative process and have always supported the policies of Idaho Fish and Game.

Since our inception in 1985, our mission has been to increase Idaho’s Wild Sheep populations through research, volunteer efforts, and fundraising. The IWSF has successfully facilitated the only statewide raffle tag for Bighorn Sheep and as a result all net proceeds of the tag are given to Idaho Fish and Game for use in Sheep Research and habitat enhancements. We rely on the efforts of dedicated sportsman throughout the state for our success. For information on becoming a member of the Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation please visit our website at www.idahowildsheep.org.

Will Shelly be staying on as a director with IDWSF?

 

[npaden]

I looked over there most recent annual report on their website and it does appear that the majority of their funding is coming from selling auction tags. It isn't as slam dunk as Bambistew is thinking as the $3.02 million is actually the money that they paid back to the state wildlife agencies but they had $6.3 million in sales at their annual convention which I assume is primarily auction and raffle tag proceeds. They did have $2.3 million of donations and $500K of membership revenue and a few other items but I would think you could safely say that the majority of their funding is from tag sales.

The way it shows up on their financials they are showing the sales as revenue and then the payment of the 70 - 95% of the proceeds back the the states as expenses which I think is a fair way to do it although I haven't researched it from an accounting perspective.

I don't think their auditor has seen their annual report though because they are violating auditing standards by including the auditor's report but not presenting a full set of financials statements. They do say in the report that complete audited financials are available, but they aren't presented. You used to be able to do that a few years ago but now you can't include an auditors report without a full set of financial statements.

Not really anything fishy or anything, just not complying with auditing standards. If I was their auditor I would get excited about that and make them pull the opinion letter out of the annual report.

 

[Schaaf]

So I just received an email response from Gray Thorton, CEO of the Wild Sheep Foundation. His response is attached below. Basically, WSF is going to do nothing. They say that Doug Sayer was simply engaging in the democratic process by contacting an elected official. Before reading on, I want to make it crystal clear that I am not attacking Mr. Thorton personally. I heard him on Randy's podcast and was very impressed and that fact that he has Randy's endorsement goes a long way in my book. However, I think he and the rest of the WSF acted spinelessly by not publicly disapproving of this behavior. WSF is simply hiding behind "an individual's right to engage in the Democratic process". Of course someone can contact their governor or any other elected official.

It all boils down to this in my opinion. WSF, Mr. Sayer and Mr. Thorton all know that states, such as Idaho, established Fish & Game commissions to avoid this exact type of situation of having a powerful person sculpt the wildlife policies of a state. Mr. Sayer attempted to circumvent/change the Fish & Game commission for personal benefit, that is plainly obvious. By not admitting that, WSF and anybody supporting Sayer and his actions are showing great disrespect to the sportsmen's community as a whole. We are intelligent enough to realize when we are getting screwed.

Here are the flaws in the WSF logic that Sayer was simply acting as normal citizen engaging in the democratic process.
1. Fish and Game commissions were basically established so that wildlife management would NOT be influenced by individuals and politics. The purpose of a commission is to have a balanced and well informed group decide on issues regarding wildlife. Mr. Sayer and Mr. Thorton obviously both know this. Because Mr. Sayer knew that the commission did not agree with this ideas, he simply tried to circumvent the normal democratic process for wildlife management by asking the Governor for a favor.
2. In 2010, Mr. Sayer was part of hiring a lobbyist to pass legislation that increases the Idaho legislature authority over auction tags. Once again, an obvious act of circumventing the normal democratic process of wildlife management.
3. The WSF stance makes it sound like Mr. Sayer simply wrote the governor a letter stating he was unhappy about a situation. The reality is that Sayer is a big donor and he made specific requests, asking the Governor to remove 4 people from their jobs. (granted 2 of these jobs are voluntary, unpaid positions). Sayer went on to say he could recommend 2 specific replacements for the commissioner positions. How many "regular Joes" would have the audacity to think the Governor would read their letter and follow through on removing 2 commissioners without getting public input? Sayer knows he is a "whale" and can sway the Governor.


View attachment 63705

Disappointing response..

 

[Elkmagnet]

I concluded that much of this "scandal" is manufactured. My opinion.

So insisting on the firing of the two board member who refuse to let politics overrun wildlife management in idaho is a manufactured "scandal"? Or is it that the insisting was done by a high up in the WSF? The same organization that currently uses the one current tag to raise money and is hoping people will not notice that this is in there best interest?
Insisting on the firing of two men that were listening to Idaho sportsman and voted against a point system.
Against the flood of action tags.
Against the rampant sale of more wildlife to the highest bidders. Against the sale of land owner permits for use on public property. Against the increase of landowner permits to a level not biologically sustainable.
Against the ability for a few with political power to demand that there personal agenda be met and overrule the tradition IDF&G has of listing to the sportsman of Idaho.
Regardless of your opinion on any of these subjects you should see a problem with this!

Do you believe in the NAMW?
I don't know you from Adam and I am likely making semi accurate assumptions but I'd guess to say that your opinion is very biased based on the ability for you to assume that it's "manufactured" and thus dismiss it as tho its not important.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you are likely very invested in the preservation of sheep? Probably have spent large amounts of time and/or money working for/with WSF for the presentation of sheep?

Good on you! I get it but that in no way matters to me if you and many others help enable the destruction of Idaho fish and game commission by the top brass at WSF.

Sorry, I don't read MM.

You should sign up it appears your values would align with many vocal members.

My opinion..

 

[idelkslayer]

Doug Sayer did more than "participate in the Democratic process". The IDFG surveyed sportsman on the issues via telephone and online and in regional meetings. 80% of respondents were opposed to issuing additional auction tags. The IDFG Commision listened to the sportsman and decided not to issue additional auction tags. Doug Sayer decided that he didn't like the outcome of the democratic process and decided to use his political weight to try and stack the deck in his favor the next time he and his state legislature buddies drag this issue out again.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I am paying close attention to WSF's actions in response to this.
I'm going to reach out to a few acquaintances on the board and either receive some decent answers or perhaps burn some bridges.

It's one thing to enable something bad it's a whole nother thing to enable something bad that you will likely benefit from.

http://www.idahowildsheep.org/board.htm

 

[grandejuan]

I agree 100%. I've been involved with FNAWS/WSF since the mid 80's. Our reputation is everything, and as I and others have stated, what Sayers did stinks. We should represent the highest standards of ethical behavior. Mr. Sayer's actions are at the bottom of the septic tank. He should resign from the WSF board now. Unfortunately, when you fight with a skunk, the smell gets all over everyone. GJ My opinion.

 

[Josh Kuntz]

I realize that this has put the Wild Sheep Foundation and particularly Gray Thorton and the Board of Directors in a real pickle. Unsurprisingly, they (the Board of Directors) have decided to remain neutral and non-confrontational and as of now are not taking any steps to reprimand Mr. Sayer. The board found one piece of the story that they could stand behind to justify their position, that being that Mr. Sayer was stating his opinion to an elected official. That certainly is a true statement but they are choosing to ignore the rest of his actions. Let me propose an idea for WSF and for that matter the Idaho Wild Sheep Foundation, the latter of which Mr. Sayer is a life member and his wife and brother-in-law serve on the board.

My idea is very simple. Each of these organizations could simply send a letter or an email to their membership, describing the FACTS of the situation and providing links to the emails that were written. Attached to the letter/email would be a survey asking each member if Mr. Sayer's actions warranted him being removed from his position, demoted, put on probation, or no action be taken. There could be other alternatives obviously, my point is to give the membership a chance to voice their opinion about what is the appropriate response to his actions. Obviously, there is some tipping point in which WSF would feel compelled to take action. What if 1000 of the members asked for Sayer's resignation as chairman, or 60% stated he should be put on probation for a year? Obviously, it would be important to state ALL the facts, starting at least as far back as 2010 when Sayer helped hire a lobbyist to create and push through legislation that allows the legislature to create laws regarding auction tags. That was one BIG first step in circumventing the established procedure of having the Fish & Game Commission manage wildlife policy.

I am a believer that the staff and leaders of our conservation groups have a duty to do the right thing for hunters and wildlife, and that sometimes includes policing members of our own community. It is an unenviable position, but one that will ultimately benefit the hunting community as a whole in the long run.

Lastly, for any Idaho residents who are reading this and are opposed to auctions tags, some of you have been asking what we can do to stop them from being crammed down our throats. Here is my opinion. I don't think the Fish & Game Commission will be bold enough to propose any auction tag increases, even though at least one commissioner supports the idea. I very much think that Representative Mike Moyle and Senator Steve Bair are going to attempt to pass legislation this winter that MANDATES that Fish & Game increase auction tags. In the end, the legislature trumps the commission, IF the legislation gets passed. Last year they tried this strategy and it failed because the legislation never got enough support to even go to a vote. Most likely this year, they will be more creative in trying to push this legislation through. So, the most important thing hunters who oppose auction tags can do is to contact their representatives, contact all the representatives on the committee that reviews the legislation, contact Moyle and Bair, and contact Governor Otter. If the state reps and senators don't hear from a large number of hunters, they may get persuaded to push this through. Moyle, Bair and Sayer are seasoned veterans of the political game and we should expect them to pull out all their tricks to try to get their way.

 

[brymoore]

Assuming this is you?

Idaho WSF Treasurer
Bryan Moore


What is going on over there Brian?
I'm not blaming you for sayers actions but I am paying close attention to WSF's actions in response to this.
I'm going to reach out to a few acquaintances on the board and either receive some decent answers or perhaps burn some bridges.

It's one thing to enable something bad it's a whole nother thing to enable something bad that you will likely benefit from.

http://www.idahowildsheep.org/board.htm

My thoughts? IDWSF is caught in the middle. On one side we have National's president who is a life member of IDWSF . His wife and BIL are on IDWSF's board and life members . They donate heavily. On the other side, you have IWF and Idaho sportsmen. IDWSF has given IWF approximately $40k in the last two years to buy grazing allotments. IWF is very good at negotiating the buyout of grazing allotments to help Wild Sheep. Furthermore, the last three words of IDWSF's mission statement are to "Protect Sportsmans Rights."

The board can't remain neutral and must pick a side. To me, the decision is between money or morality. I can always find money.

 

[MTGomer]

arguably the best conservation group in the world, doesn't need to sell auction tags to remain solvent... nor keep elk on the mountain.

Good dialogue while I was out.

Also, major points to you for the sarcastic, dry sense of humor illustrated above. Good satire goes largely unnoticed these days

 

[idelkslayer]

I realize that this has put the Wild Sheep Foundation and particularly Gray Thorton and the Board of Directors in a real pickle. Unsurprisingly, they (the Board of Directors) have decided to remain neutral and non-confrontational and as of now are not taking any steps to reprimand Mr. Sayer. The board found one piece of the story that they could stand behind to justify their position, that being that Mr. Sayer was stating his opinion to an elected official. That certainly is a true statement but they are choosing to ignore the rest of his actions.
i.

That is playing politics and the WSF board knows it. Doug Sayer is welcome to express his opinion to the IDFG commission just like all the other sportsmen in the state in the same process that has successfully managed big game in Idaho since 1938. The fact that Doug Sayer went to the governor when public opinion and the IDFG commission didn't support his desires just shows that he thinks he is above the average sportsmen in Idaho.

I can almost guarantee that there will be another attempt by the legislature to pass an auction tag mandate to the IDFG this coming session. Last year certain Idaho legislators held a widely supported license and tag fee increase bill hostage in order to force the IDFG to support their auction tag bill. Why did they do that? Because they don't want the average sportsmen to fund conservation, they want everyone to think that we need them and their deep pockets to pay for everything. To their credit the IDFG commission didn't budge and in fact withdrew their fee increase bill rather than cave in to Doug Sayers, Steve Bair and others. How were they thanked for standing up for us? Well that's what this whole thread is about isn't it?

 

[TheTone]

Thankfully we are in an election year so we can tell or show some of the politicians we don't like them playing biologist. Unfortunately we live in Idaho where lots of people vote so blindly.

 

[grandejuan]

Peter Drucker said, "Management is doing things right", "Leadership is doing the right thing". The WSF board is hoping to manage this controversy into oblivion. These folks are supposed to represent the highest ideas of conservation for our organization. If they are the leaders they claim to be, then they should demand Mr Sayers resignation. Ethics should trump money. GJ