Relax, Everything is Going to be Okay!

[Gulf of America]

All the talk of fed workers being lazy and impossible to fire is BS. Bad managers make for bad employees, and blanket firing anyone who's been promoted in the last year isn't a great strategy to suddenly get good managers.

 

[Big Fin]

It kind of seems like this was the dumpster fire you had envisioned when you redirected away from Buzz’s thread.

I’m not seeing a whole lot on this one that is pertinent to what Paul’s original purpose either- which is a shame in my opinion, as he presented an interesting and potentially valuable counterpoint.

I'm not sure what connection this thread has to public land management, but I was, and I am, willing to let it ride and see where it goes.

If folks can connect the dots to the posts here and make them about hunting, conservation, and public access, I would be interested in following along.

Since you say this is a dumpster fire, that is exactly why I try to keep these kind of posts out of threads that do actually have something to do with public lands, conservation, hunting, and access.

Moderating discussions when Americans are more and more inclined to make their first filter of judgment be the political lens they wear results in at least half the hyper-partisan folks pissed off. I find it interesting how a few folks in this thread wanted me to close the thread Buzz started. I declined to close that thread. And some have asked me to close this thread, which I've rejected, wanting to see where it went and what it might include.

Here's what I take from your comment, when someone makes a dumpster fire out of a useful thread that is relevant to this forum, that's OK, but when folks make a dumpster fire out of a thread that still hasn't shown any connection to the purpose of this forum, then that was intentional on my part and is bad.

Maybe that's not what you intended, but that's how I read it.

I will say that as moderator I get to see all the requests and complaints from both sides, something none of the members get to see. It gets old. It comes equally from both sides of arguments. The amount of folks from both side who send moderation requests have likely jaded me. The most common trait is someone complaining about a thread/post/member, yet they are one of the first to do the same when the topic is from the other side of the aisle.

 

[Gulf of America]

As I outlined for you, ,Elon, like the rest of the USA does, minimizes his tax burden under the laws that Congress created. If I am going to hold anyone in contempt for that it will be Congress who created the laws, not the person that's doing the same thing I do.

That's fair to blame congress, and I'm just as pissed at them as Elon. But I didn't just say fraud, I said abuse, and I think it's pretty fair to assume he's abusing the tax code to minimize his tax burden, and if he truly believed in doing his civic duty and making this nation great, he would pay his fair share... or anything at all.

 

[trackerbacker]

What Elon is doing is the equivalent of taking the oil pump and radiator out of new cars to lower production costs. Everything is going to break down and fail. And when that happens to federal lands the solution is going to be to transfer them to the states. The premise to this thread is to relax and let it unfold. I disagree with that premise.

Oil pumps and radiators are useful. He's doing a delete kit on the def fluid, bypassing variable valve technology and running 110LL

What do you do for work? Also not real relevant.

But i found your engineer with biology understanding comment kind of funny. Sort of like finding a doctor that also does accounting. But carry on.

Did. Investment development. Think QOZ, QOF, like kinds, PUDs, swaps. Wholesale, marketshare. Proformas, MGMT and runups of projects.

For the purpose of the discussion, a ven diagram around civil engineers and biologists in relations to impacts on soil, would probably be as suited as any field while looking for an actually expert without trying to hire 10 to accomplish an exceptionally easy task.

But find a doctor of accounting...then we'll be cooking.

 

[dranrab]

I could share some of the threads of mine buzz managed to get shut down by being a douche. He gets special treatment.

Based on the most recent activity here, he demands it.

 

[Big Fin]

In the last 2 weeks, I've called plumbers from Eastern MT, to MN, and everyone is so busy I only was able to wrangle in 1 bid for a new project.

If someone isn't busy right now, they're probably bad at what they do, or aren't looking for work.


I could share some of the threads of mine buzz managed to get shut down by being a douche. He gets special treatment.

And I could show you a ton of threads, some being Buzz's threads, that managed to get shut down by others being a douche. And those folks who acted like a douche are still here, also. Does that mean they get special treatment, also? Or does your observation only apply to people you disagree with?

If you don't like how this forum is moderated, rather than spend most your morning complaining about it, you can send me a PM and ask that your account be deleted.

 

[dranrab]

That's fair to blame congress, and I'm just as pissed at them as Elon. But I didn't just say fraud, I said abuse, and I think it's pretty fair to assume he's abusing the tax code to minimize his tax burden, and if he truly believed in doing his civic duty and making this nation great, he would pay his fair share... or anything at all.

I guess we diverge at the use of the word abuse. I guess I abuse it too. When I take my papers to my tax preparer, he knows I want to minimize my burden. If that's the definition of abuse, Elon abuses it like the overwhelming majority of us. Even with that I can't begrudge him. The amount of total tax he is responsible for generating is staggering. We wouldn't have a country if everyone paid the same amount I do.

 

[TX Trophy Hunter]

It's a bloated process meant to do nothing more than extract money, if it was anything else, penalties wouldn't be fines. Fines I can roll into cost of doing business. Fines I can put on my taxes to reduce burden. Fines are simply permission slips for a fee.

The Forest Service doesn’t just pay fines and go ahead and implement projects. When they get sued, the project does not get approved. Period. If they went ahead with the project the line officer would go to jail. I don’t care what kind of stuff you do in your personal life, you do not understand the process of how land management agencies go about their business.

But. Tldr- sounds like your personal issue would be better solved by hiring qualified and competent planner instead of crowd sourcing legal battles on federal land for hobbies?

Projects are being implemented because there are adequate planners. Until last week anyway when they started getting fired

 

[dranrab]

And I could show you a ton of threads, some being Buzz's threads, that managed to get shut down by others being a douche. And those folks who acted like a douche are still here, also. Does that mean they get special treatment, also? Or does your observation only apply to people you disagree with?

If you don't like how this forum is moderated, rather than spend most your morning complaining about it, you can send me a PM and ask that your account be deleted.

Moderating a forum is a thankless job. I did it on two major forums, advrider and thehulltruth No matter what you do or don't do, you'll piss someone off.

 

[Big Fin]

If changing people's minds is the reason for posting, surely you know that isn't going to work. I focus on helping people understand my beliefs, thoughts and perspectives, so that even if they don't agree they can see that there's a substantive basis for them. As I outlined for you, ,Elon, like the rest of the USA does, minimizes his tax burden under the laws that Congress created. If I am going to hold anyone in contempt for that it will be Congress who created the laws, not the person that's doing the same thing I do.

Crazy talk, I am sure.

I would suggest more members think about what is bolded above, no matter the topic or a person's position on an issue. A discussion here doesn't have to be with the intent to change anyone/everyone's mind. There is value, I would say more value, in posting thoughts to give understanding of why others might see things differently. And that there can be disagreement without the playground-level behavior.

 

[trackerbacker]

"I've paid many thousand to replat land from fema flood zones and stripped titles through DNR and FEMA to disappear the FEMA 100 on projects.

And you know what it takes to do that? Not an interdisciplinary team that thinks they are important but are simply arbitrary to the main point and powers that be, but money."

@trackerbacker This is just pure BS - as someone who also deals with it. Its not money. The government also cant study every drainage with a fine tooth comb - and many of the fema models are very old and use old/weak contour data. You have to pay a professional (well a few) to do surveying, engineering, and hydrology for that.

You're losing the forest for the trees, or trees for the forest. Your pick

But. Lets go. The .gov can't study every ditch, I agree. But saying I can't touch any decline because water runs downhill usually, is over reach. (Regulations).

And I don't need a team of interdisciplinary engineers to get rid of FEMA etc. I will quite literally gut the flood zone from the plat, or parcel it into inconceivable portions that allow for the myriad of 'LOOPHOLES' to re-establish said boundaries. If that takes lidar, if that takes instrumentation or equipment, if that takes a c note on a Thursday morning for some excavator to walk away from chicken bones, fine.

Yes, that's not all me.

That's me, my excavator, my engineer. The same 3 people.

Flood zones have saved and made more a brick of money. And quite frankly, in whole, that's probably 8 or 9 projects with limiting FEMA issues and the like.

Ask FEMA, if I buy offsetting wetlands (the same wetlands they're selling you, no, not same wetlands different serial number. Same same), how suddenly I went from Hitler to Teddy R and #*^@#* that endangered frog now, he bought mitigating wetlands credits..permit approved!

Where are you at in the ladder?

 

[trackerbacker]

Moderating a forum is a thankless job. I did it on two major forums, advrider and thehulltruth No matter what you do or don't do, you'll piss someone off.

I don't want him moderating, I want him to answer, as a CPA, if people should pay more or less taxes, if legally allowed, as that's relevant to the topic, thread and contexts.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You're losing the forest for the trees, or trees for the forest. Your pick

But. Lets go. The .gov can't study every ditch, I agree. But saying I can't touch any decline because water runs downhill usually, is over reach. (Regulations).

And I don't need a team of interdisciplinary engineers to get rid of FEMA etc. I will quite literally gut the flood zone from the plat, or parcel it into inconceivable portions that allow for the myriad of 'LOOPHOLES' to re-establish said boundaries. If that takes lidar, if that takes instrumentation or equipment, if that takes a c note on a Thursday morning for some excavator to walk away from chicken bones, fine.

Yes, that's not all me.

That's me, my excavator, my engineer. The same 3 people.

Flood zones have saved and made more a brick of money. And quite frankly, in whole, that's probably 8 or 9 projects with limiting FEMA issues and the like.

Ask FEMA, if I buy offsetting wetlands (the same wetlands they're selling you, no, not same wetlands different serial number. Same same), how suddenly I went from Hitler to Teddy R and #*^@#* that endangered frog now, he bought mitigating wetlands credits..permit approved!

Where are you at in the ladder?

I'll try to make the point simple.

If you have a property - and someone builds property above it and floods yours, they violated your property rights by having no thought of what their new discharge might do to your property. With these "regulations" they are required to make a sound engineering effort to ensure that it doesnt happen. And if they screw it up - you can sue em - and thank god for that.

Anyway - mostly i just want to tell you as someone who also wants smaller gov (esp in the right places) and less taxes, you arent making a coherent point or helping the cause. Hopefully i did that in as few words as possible.

 

[hank4elk]

The impact stories tell of real consequences, not merely "BS" strategies to garner public support. That is a red herring in the "efficiency" discussion.
Untold nonprofit support organizations contribute significantly to functioning of national parks and USFS lands, yet NPS and USFS still face challenges and backlogs. 'Don't think it's because of too many workers.
I wonder how many here who obviously hold disdain for the government have actually visited with a ranger in a national park, enjoyed Glacier or Yellowstone Parks to become aware of the operational challenges, or have attempted to backpack up a downed timber clogged trail in the Bob Marshall Wilderness or up a trail in Wyoming off the Thorofare. The challenges faced by these agencies are real.

Anecdotal accounts of personal employment experiences performing unnecessary work or just idly looking for something to do while taking a regular government paycheck say more about the person than the agency.

And you get the bonus of the attitude dudes while you do the job of 2. On vacation assholes bringing their crap to nice places.
"preciate that"
And you get to pay taxes , to support the job.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

I provided a real world example of how an agency that suffered a 40% workforce loss was able to overcome. If these agencies can't handle a 10-15% loss in workforce, they have the wrong leadership and supervisors.

But is this truly just a 10% reduction? Gleaning from other threads on here from @BuzzH and @Hunting Wife postings it is now my understanding that the USFS has never really been “fully” staffed in my lifetime (circa 1988). I forget what exactly they stated but going back to ~1990 USFS has seen a 30-40% reduction. So seems more that this is an additional X% reduction. When you view these cuts in the larger picture over that timeframe of 30-40 years concerns can come to the surface.

Really looking forward to @Big Fin fresh tracks weekly episode discussing these cuts this week. He is the voice public land hunters need in this hour but none of us deserve. Thank you for your efforts and for doing your best with this forum and these hot-button topics.

Maybe it is all just a big conspiracy theory that Randy concocted, but this is certainly fodder for one to consider it to be plausible. Time will tell.

 

[Bonasababy]

Yep, if anyone harbors resentment over someone minimizing their taxes, I certainly hope they don't do it themselves.

The lesson shouldn't be whether people should attempt to minimize their taxes. But whether the wealthy or corporations have a LOT more ability to use loopholes to avoid paying them than most if not all of us on this board do.

Secondary is the irony of an un-elected corporate leader going after what amounts to pennies towards the national debt with an ax while his own corporation paid zip, nothing, zero taxes on BILLIONS of income.

Third would be the irony in firing many IRS staff-when hiriing more so they could go after cheats has been shown again and again to MORE than pay for itself.

Will we be OK? No I sure don't think so. God help anyone trying to reach the IRS For help on the phone now. A few years back it was an hour on hold for me to do so.

I fail to see how things will be better with natural resource agencies affected by these broad cuts with no attempt to ID need to cut or what would be lost with the cuts. The idea seems to be just the reduction is sorely needed and will pay off down the line. As if every federal employee does work that doesn't have benefits to anyone.

I haven't seen anyone arguing there isn't any waste out there that could be trimmed--I think there is but if waste trimming is the goal lets not forget where real hay can be made in that regard and focus on even more impactful ways to trim the federal budget--we aren't gaining much if anything in this indiscriminate cutting of federal employees IMO.

 

[trackerbacker]

I'll try to make the point simple.

If you have a property - and someone builds property above it and floods yours, they violated your property rights by having no thought of what their new discharge might do to your property. With these "regulations" they are required to make a sound engineering effort to ensure that it doesnt happen. And if they screw it up - you can sue em - and thank god for that.

Anyway - mostly i just want to tell you as someone who also wants smaller gov (esp in the right places) and less taxes, you arent making a coherent point or helping the cause. Hopefully i did that in as few words as possible.

Your rights. My rights. They both end at the property line.

Most the world has topography that would lend itself to flooding thy neighbor...

And of all the tort cases in the world...that has to have the least traction.

Please. Enlighten me on helping the cause? ⅔ of the members are cucks to their complaints. Be it influencers, advertisers, land mgmt. They'll bitch to high heaven ignoring the obvious. The members here are in full support of removing YOUR rights for THEIR rights.

My cause, aside from explicitly what this forum is, is explicitly calling out those lacking conviction and those seeking others property, where it tangentially collides with hunting, land and the outdoors.

Coincidentally, Ive been banned for calling out such acts, and using some term that ruffled the blue teal duck feathers (see. Hunting related, can't ban me)...
...when in reality I was counterpoint to HuntTalkQuietly™ burning someone's house down.

Perhaps my gloating in the face of those who lost (ie HuntTalkQuietly™) had something to do with it. But what's the point of winning if you won't rub the losers face in it?

Also, as if it's not evident, my opinion, the mods have the hands full with the tides turning from one ideological perspective to the polar opposite amongst membership, well, at least that it's speaking UP much more, and the apparent nature is to moderate that sentiment....rather than the discussion.

My zoomed out viewpoint. I know others are taking notice. I know mods are biasing too. The vibe is swelling and public, and the public received its lashing for getting out of line. As it continues to receive.

Shit- talk politics or money, in the money or politics forum-but from a pro Trump standpoint and be hollered at for not being on topic. Like now. What's allowed and not allowed to be on topic rests solely in the direction, politically, discussion is going, not on which moderator.

60%+ won't see it, but there's a reason y'all should be introspective. Randy may be pro-hunter, the other cheerleaders here are solely pro-me-only-hunter, and the captain only listens to those in skirts..

Not even the 3rd time in a week it's been brought up that mods and cheerleaders > plebs > Voldemort (you know. He who can't be named.)

The lesson shouldn't be whether people should attempt to minimize their taxes. But whether the wealthy or corporations have a LOT more ability to use loopholes to avoid paying them than most if not all of us on this board do.

Secondary is the irony of an un-elected corporate leader going after what amounts to pennies towards the national debt with an ax while his own corporation paid zip, nothing, zero taxes on BILLIONS of income.

Third would be the irony in firing many IRS staff-when hiriing more so they could go after cheats has been shown again and again to MORE than pay for itself.

Will we be OK? No I sure don't think so. God help anyone trying to reach the IRS For help on the phone now. A few years back it was an hour on hold for me to do so.

So you aren't paying the same fair share you believe in?

You aren't donating to the IRS?

But, others....they should, wait, just others with more money should.

Got it..point proven. Class envy.

Oh heavens no....how will I ever reach the IRS now?

 

[Dave N]

Something still works. I got my refund in 9 days!

 

[SAJ-99]

If changing people's minds is the reason for posting, surely you know that isn't going to work. I focus on helping people understand my beliefs, thoughts and perspectives, so that even if they don't agree they can see that there's a substantive basis for them.

I agree. Your posts have made me think, but I am still confident in my position (that everything is NOT OK). Hopefully you understand that you give one perspective and that someone else (even in the Coast Guard) with the exact same position could say the opposite. I think the discussion is useful. My only point is that there is a process to implement changes. We have 100 Senator and 435 Representatives that are supposed to work for their constituents. The process for changing the role of the Coast Guard or the role of the USFS involves them proposing an idea, letting the public voice comments, then they voting. What we have here is not that process and is anti-democratic at its core. You think everything is going to be ok, and it may be for the Coast Guard or the deficit or whatever people choose to be their justification metric. But if we let this happen without putting up a fight, the process we call democracy is over. And we have ourselves to blame.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Your rights. My rights. They both end at the property line.

If thats really how you think - you arent at all convincable and youre thinking about it too simplistically.

Good day to you.