Quitters

[Nameless Range]

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I actually kind of love this. Reminds me of some of the ranching kids I grew up with. Own some of the most pristine and productive habitat in Montana, and could give two shits about hunting.

If someone draws a permit you hope to someday, what better thing for them to do in your favor. I respect your friend more than the dudes who, with the same permit, would hire folks to scout for them.

 

[Irrelevant]

Easy come easy go? I wonder how many people don't hunt the tags they draw.

AK harvest reporting include a box to check if you did or didn't hunt. I'm not sure how accurate the information reported is, because a guy could hunt the tag and be lazy and just check did not hunt and submit the information. Either way, year after year about 25-35% of the people with draw tags report "did not hunt." It doesn't matter if its a cow moose, bison, muskox or chugach sheep. The average is the same across the board. I would think it would be lower in the L48 for tags, but often wonder.

One thing to consider, is if everyone hunted the tags, the would have to issue a few less, which would decrease odds of drawing.

WA has that same question. Results are that only about 1/2 of the winners hunt their special draw tags.

 

[Irrelevant]

In fact, it this reminds me, a friend of a friend had a WA moose tag for Nov. He waited until the weekend before thanksgiving, for the trees to drop their leaves and all, then quit at thanksgiving, having not seen a moose. I just can't fathom it. I don't even want to kill a moose and I would've hunted the entire season.

 

[Point Creep]

WA has that same question. Results are that only about 1/2 of the winners hunt their special draw tags.

One HALF? WTF.

 

[Point Creep]

WA has that same question. Results are that only about 1/2 of the winners hunt their special draw tags.

Oh I get it now. It’s because they’re too busy planning their eastern MT deer hunt and they forget about the special draw tag in their own state.

 

[kwyeewyk]

Oh I get it now. It’s because they’re too busy planning their eastern MT deer hunt and they forget about the special draw tag in their own state.

Beat me to it

 

[Point Creep]

I can tell you what triggers me and makes my head want to explode even MORE than people not caring enough to try on these special permits...

It's the folks that find it necessary/helpful/kind/smart to post a thread or reminder somewhere to everybody to not miss the upcoming application deadline...

I mean come on. Let people forget about that shit, because I sure won't.

 

[Irrelevant]

Oh I get it now. It’s because they’re too busy planning their eastern MT deer hunt and they forget about the special draw tag in their own state.

I was just discussing that with a buddy who has a late season archery tag, it took him 15 years of applying to draw. He shot the second biggest buck he saw in a week (biggest was all broken up), it's ~145". By that metric an eastern MT tag might be better. I know I'd rather have several ID elk tags than most of the special draw elk tags in WA.

 

[Deleted member 48080]

And then the issue compounds when you think about the fact that FWP sets quota numbers on MSG with harvest rates. When harvest rates go down, tag numbers go down.

So on top of odds going down so much when the apps became cheap, the tag numbers are being cut because the harvest rates are going down with all the people who either don't care if they hunt the tag, or don't even realize their husband/father/whoever applied them.

Reading the replies to a thread like this just makes me shake my head-

Who else has stopped helping people get/track points?

This year I drew a line in the sand. If you didn't get the points yourself then you're not getting the points. I have grown tired of keeping up with everyone's points besides me and the wife and kiddo. Several people in my family decided to not continue in Wyoming after getting 5 points for...

www.hunttalk.com

 

[Hem]

You want to hunt MSG you should pony up couple hundred bucks to apply.
Per app.

 

[huntin24/7]

I know a guy who hunts very little that drew a goat tag several years ago in a unit I’d been on a couple goat hunts in. I helped him out as much as I could with info. My first thought was there’s no way this guy is physically ready for this kind of hunt. Pretty sure the same unit marshian drew. He hunted one day having no idea what he’d got himself into, hiked out the next day, and never went back. I couldn’t help but think about all the guys that would’ve given their left nut for that tag. I would like to see those rare opportunities for MSG be priced enough that at least people on the fence about those hunts would think a little more before applying.

 

[Kentucky Jack]

I guess I'm a quitter too! I quit applying for elk tags in my home state of Kentucky 3 years ago. Just got tired of never being drawn but watching the same TV hunters get tags year after year really pissed me off. Really wished I had learned about opportunities in the western states before age 35 but better late than never I reckon.

 

[Point Creep]

And then the issue compounds when you think about the fact that FWP sets quota numbers on MSG with harvest rates. When harvest rates go down, tag numbers go down.

So on top of odds going down so much when the apps became cheap, the tag numbers are being cut because the harvest rates are going down with all the people who either don't care if they hunt the tag, or don't even realize their husband/father/whoever applied them.

I've had discussions with FWP folks about this, there is no changing minds and it's utter stupidity.

Take for example moose unit 311. It's a tough wilderness hunt if somebody chooses to hunt moose in the national forest. It's thick and not easy to just "glass up" moose like most MT moose hunts. That said, the unit is huge and there's moose in every single Madison/Gallatin drainage in it. More than half the unit is private and there's good moose numbers on miles of willow bottomed river on the north end of unit, as well as a large Turner ranch with very good moose numbers on it - and they do allow hunting for a price.

2 permits. Seriously. They want to keep it at 80% success or better harvest is the rationale. They cold triple the permits with ZERO impact to the resource, and yes, some people would be eating tag soup, which doesn't hurt a damn thing.

 

[Caseknife]

@Greenhorn , your buddy's comment about "saved one for you" kind of makes you realize that many people do not get how difficult it is to draw these tags and think it is no big deal. Think more people need to have taken a statistics class in college.

 

[Deleted member 40728]

I can tell you what triggers me and makes my head want to explode even MORE than people not caring enough to try on these special permits...

It's the folks that find it necessary/helpful/kind/smart to post a thread or reminder somewhere to everybody to not miss the upcoming application deadline...

I mean come on. Let people forget about that shit, because I sure won't.

Unfortunately some shithead came out with the idea to charge $99 per year, 89 w/ code Randy I’m sure, to send email and text reminders to every damn person who is too stupid or lazy to keep track of things on their own. Nobody misses a deadline now.

 

[Nameless Range]

They definitely need to increase the initial cost of the big 3. Setting MSG quotas on Hunter harvest is not something I was aware of or had thought about.

Interestingly,when the moose quota was increased in 380 in 2022, the biologist explicitly stated kind of an opposite rationale. Based on observations, he knew there was a healthy population of moose, and in his justification said that because hunter success was low in connecting with those moose, he proposed increasing the amount of permits. It was because success rates were low, that he proposed a quota increase. Because there are so many factors that figure into whether or not someone fills a permit, I would think that hunter success rate is a poor proxy when juxtaposed against actual population counts, which would be the best metric, though I suppose not easily obtainable for all species in all places.

 

[Point Creep]

They definitely need to increase the initial cost of the big 3. Setting MSG quotas on Hunter harvest is not something I was aware of or had thought about.

Interestingly,when the moose quota was increased in 380 in 2022, the biologist explicitly stated kind of an opposite rationale. Based on observations, he knew there was a healthy population of moose, and in his justification said that because hunter success was low in connecting with those moose, he proposed increasing the amount of permits. It was because success rates were low, that he proposed a quota increase. Because there are so many factors that figure into whether or not someone fills a permit, I would think that hunter success rate is a poor proxy when juxtaposed against actual population counts, which would be the best metric, though I suppose not easily obtainable for all species in all places.

Can you introduce the biologist with the above listed rationale to Julie in the Bozeman office?

Based on the advice I hear coming from Region 3 to some hunters with MSG permits, I don't think there's really any hope.

Some 2023 quotes from FWP experts:
1) Highway mortality in Gallatin Canyon is ~20 moose annually.
2) Best place to hunt moose in Spanish Peaks unit 311 is Missouri Headwaters State Park.
3) Worst place to hunt bighorn sheep in Spanish Peaks is near Mirror Lake - I mean it's terrible, don't even bother.

 

[406dn]

I was unaware that the FWP used harvest data from MSG to determine quota. I'd be ashamed to be the biologist that went along with that.

I do think that the draw for MSG should be high enough for the casual hunter think about it, but not so high to preclude hunters with a median income from trying. It should be non refundable.

It might not be a bad idea to go the Idaho route and have it that you can only apply for one of the species each year. That would present an interesting dilemma for hunters. Most, likely want a ram more than the other two. But they realize, so does everyone else, so maybe they should try draw a moose or goat tag.

 

[Hem]

I was unaware that the FWP used harvest data from MSG to determine quota. I'd be ashamed to be the biologist that went along with that.

I do think that the draw for MSG should be high enough for the casual hunter think about it, but not so high to preclude hunters with a median income from trying. It should be non refundable.

It might not be a bad idea to go the Idaho route and have it that you can only apply for one of the species each year. That would present an interesting dilemma for hunters. Most, likely want a ram more than the other two. But they realize, so does everyone else, so maybe they should try draw a moose or goat tag.

Anything other than " do you want to apply for MSG, along with these other tags ?" ( FWP employee).

" Sure. Why not."

 

[Point Creep]

Got a msg tonight from a lifelong MT hunter in his 70s that drew sheep in an area he’s spent the majority of his career working and he’s applied for sheep 4+ decades. His ram was taken on the afternoon of the last day of the season with his son and family friend along. Not a quitter - and nice to read his excitement for and appreciation of the hunt.