Question about Union's

[Nemont]

Like stated above ceittergetter unions are not perfect either. But a lot of what you just shared isn't even union related. Could easily go on non union. If they were breaking the contract why didn't you do something about it?

And how do you know they are overpaid? Because you think they are? I would like to see how one determines if someone is overpaid.

And don't cry on here because you went to school, spent a ton of money and have someone who didn't make more you. Sorry they went to a trade school instead of an overpriced college. Maybe college tuition isn't high but I'm making an assumption like you.

Is 5 years in a trade school not comparable to a college degree?

Maybe you should work harder and get paid what you are worth. hell, engineers are a dime a dozen right now. They have always been overpaid. Some have seen the light and are using our apprenticeship program to pay off their college debt.

I stand by my opinion that the wankers on wall steet are bums and feel they are entitled to make lots of money just because they went to school...

I have alot of friends who belong to unions, my wife is a union member and I grew up in a house where my Grandpa and uncles were Butte union miners, and the above post sounds exactly like every union leader I have ever met, Buzz may be different. Their labor is always worth more than any of the guys who risk capital. They don't want any one questioning whether they are over paid but everyone else is over paid.

The union guys in my town are the biggest out of town shoppers but the first ones to come by the office to want me to donate to their Christmas party.

I love the idea that nobody can determine that labor is over paid but the same guy who makes that statement can determine that somebody on Wall Street is a bum and he is overpaid. Shouldn't surprise me.

I understand that there is a need for unions in alot of areas of industry and agree that labor is a commodity that should be treated with respect, valued and paid according to what the labor market can provide. No problems there, however it is the other side of the coin that is equally frustrating, as a guy who risks capital, employs people (voluntarity I might add) and has been lucky enough to make a decent living why should I be looked down upon by labor?

I have had union guys tell me that they won't do business with such and such a local guy because he makes enough money already and in the next breath bitch, whine and moan that their $90,000 railroad job is just unfair and that the railroad is screwing them. That is the attitude that drives me nuts about the unions.

Just listen to what is posted on here, unions guys can determine everyone else is overpaid and a bum but don't dare ever call any union member overpaid because that cannot be determined.

Nemont

 

[fowladdict]

Buzz,

Agreed...was simply arguing WYDH's statement.

For what it is worth my father is retired pretty comfortably after working within a Union for 30 plus years. Over the last ten or so years he optioned himself out of the Union. I'm sure it was similar to what Schmalts was talking about. I know he had to take less pay, but he still reaped some of the benefits. In the end he didn't give two shits if the union had his back or not. He hated working within the union and was glad to be able to retire when he did. A guy that my dad worked with over those 30 years practically slept on his desk his last five years. Drove my dad nuts, but you couldn't touch him. The union would have had his back.


There are doctors, engineers, plumbers and ice cream men that are worth their salt and those that aren't worth 2 cents an hour...union or not.

 

[6speed]

bennett454 The reason I was asking about where you had been looking is because I remembered seeing a posting for a biologist here in Idaho but that wouldn't work if you plan on staying put for a few years.

As for the union argument I don't belong to one and probably never will. I agree with what some on here have said on both sides of the issue but it's hard for me to look past the amount of money the unions have spent getting their politicians elected. With the top political contributions going to the Dems and having many of the top political contributors be unions makes me cringe when I hear about how great they are. http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

 

[fowladdict]

fowladdict1,

Good workers of any stripe are worth their salt...and their pay. Thats regardless of their education, degree, or apprenticeship.

You're full of crap that a good laborer isnt worth as much as an engineer, I can tell you stories about engineers that arent worth 2 cents an hour...

I can also show you projects where the guy(s) with no degree saved the engineers ass, big-time.

Wow you edited your comments...but whatever.

I can tell you a story of a union laborer that thinks sewer turds could flow uphill. I can tell you a story of a union laborer that installed a storm drainage system using plans that have a big stamp on all sheets that say "Plan Review Not for Construction".

I think a good laborer is valuable, but I don't think a good laborer is worth more pay wise when it comes to a good engineer....sorry.

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

I hate, and largely wont, argue about who's worth what until someone pulls the "the union guys arent worth their pay" bullchit, I went to college I'm worth more, blah, blah, blah. I know people in every profession that I feel are grossly over-paid, and some that I feel are grossly under-paid. Its life...and it aint always "fair".

All I want to see is a fair days pay for a fair days work in a safe work environment...for everyone, not just union employees, not just for people with college degrees, etc.

I like to see decent/fair benefits to employees, equity in work assignments, career advancement possibilities, etc.

 

[BuzzH]

fowladdict1,

When good laborers and good engineers meet...its tough for me to make the distinction who should be paid more and who's worth the most. Apparently, in your eyes, engineers should always make more for some, only known to you, reason. I value my time as much as anyone else's...no more, but just as much.

Just sayin'...

 

[Nemont]

Buzz,

Trust I understand life is unfair and I have had to take a long hard look at my attitude about unions given my wife's affliation but for every hard working union member out there there is also a hardworking business owner as well and not all businesses owners are out to screw their employees. In fact it is hard to get good employees so I have made an effort to pay above what others pay and am constantly looking at what my peers are paying so I can be competitive.

There is a fallacy alot of times that we would all be slaves if unions didn't exist. Times have changed and yes unions won alot of those changes in labor, but in alot of areas unions have failed to change with the times. I watch my wife's unions turn itself in knots to make everything fair and equal even if it costs members money in the end, they will trip over $100 buck to get to a $5 dollar bill in alot of cases.

I believe that there is a case for unions and that they need to update not only their goals but broaden their appeal, there is a reason that union membership has declined so dramatically and it is not because evil men decided to break unions, I would argue that it is the unions inability to adapt to the reality around the country.

Anyway congrats on another great hunting season, keep shooting straight, I am going to take out some more frustration on not killing a great buck on the abundant waterfowl flying around. Happy hunting.

Nemont

 

[fowladdict]

fowladdict1,

When good laborers and good engineers meet...its tough for me to make the distinction who should be paid more and who's worth the most. Apparently, in your eyes, engineers should always make more for some, only known to you, reason. I value my time as much as anyone else's...no more, but just as much.

Just sayin'...

I'm not an asshole...really I'm not. I don't think anyone's "time" is more important than that of any others. I don't know if this makes sense, but here is how I see it. A doctor makes more than a nurse, An attorney makes more than a paralegal, a dentist makes more than a hygenist and so on.

Maybe our definition of a laborer is different. I think the construction manager is salary wise should be similar to that of an engineer....hour for hour. And to my knowledge it roughly is.

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

I think our local has adapted, our membership has grown dramatically since myself and one of my co-workers have taken the helm. We solve problems quickly and we dont get bogged down in minutia. I feel like we're a pretty down to earth, common sense local. We work well with and maintain open communication with Management. I appreciate their work, and they ours. Its largely win-win.

I realize that not everything is going to be "fair"...I'm not going to prop up lazy employees who dont help themselves and I'm not going to fight things just because I can. However, I dont like to see good employees dumped on either...and oddly enough, that happens a lot. Many times the best employees are expected to go wayyy above and beyond, mainly because they know others wont.

I dont agree that Union busting doesnt happen, but I do agree that the Unions havent been pro-active enough to see that it doesnt happen either.

I'm pretty much on the same page as you though, I dont like lazy employees. I like to see good working relationships between employees/Unions and management/business, and dont like seeing either being taken advantage of.

Good luck on the fowl the rest of the season...you havent been showing them much mercy this year!

 

[Flatrock]

Well, I guess that ill join the party here.

First off, i am in a union. In my opinion, unions served their purpose many years ago and served a great purpose in their day. They did many good things to help get workers a safe, clean and fair working environment. However, I think that they have served their purpose and are no longer needed. I think that it would be terribly burdensome to own a company and have to deal with unions.

In my job, there are definitely some guys that should be fired, no questions asked. However, my union always defends them and helps them to keep their job. I know one of our union rep's fairly well and he absolutely can't stand one of our guys and would personally fire him if he could for his terrible and UNSAFE job performance. Instead though, he has to defend him and help stop management from firing him. Additionally, this guy is personally responsible for the lives of hundreds of stranger's everyday. If any of you guys travel, my fellow co-worker might be in control of your life which is very scary. I would definitely not want him in control of my life or any of my family members.
For anyone interested, I would highly recommend the book "while America aged.". It is about 3 different unions and how they basically bankrupted the entity that they worked for. As one example, the book said that before GM went bankrupt and because of the union negotiated contracts, GM spent more money on health care than on steel. In fact, health care was GM's biggest expense. I don't know how ANY company could survive when health care is their biggest expense.

 

[BuzzH]

If your Union rep is defending unsafe work...he needs to go, and on a rail faster than the unsafe employee. I can tell you for a fact, he is NOT required to, and should not be, defending any Union Member that puts others at safety risks. You should be immediately reporting this situation to safety officers, safety reps, Management, as well as Union Officials etc.

I take work safety well past seriously. Safety is EVERYONE'S responsibility and that includes reporting unsafe work and getting that situation solved ASAP before someone is hurt or killed. Its no joke and you need to take some personal responsibility and get it solved.

 

[schmalts]

fowladdict1,

You're full of crap that a good laborer isn't worth as much as an engineer, I can tell you stories about engineers that aren't worth 2 cents an hour...

I can also show you projects where the guy(s) with no degree saved the engineers ass, big-time.

Dead on.... That piece of paper many times should be used as asswipe. I know many mechanical engineers that only know what they read and couldn't change the oil in their own cars. The good engineers listen up when the good skilled trades guys tell them how things need to be because they have been there and done it. You can't learn experience in school.

 

[Dinkshooter]

I know many mechanical engineers that only know what they read and couldn't change the oil in their own cars.

In fact if you change the oil in your car (or ever spent more than 15 minutes wrenching on one) you quickly realize engineers have NEVER done it themselves

 

[thecrittergitter]

Like stated above ceittergetter unions are not perfect either. But a lot of what you just shared isn't even union related. Could easily go on non union. If they were breaking the contract why didn't you do something about it?

And how do you know they are overpaid? Because you think they are? I would like to see how one determines if someone is overpaid.

And don't cry on here because you went to school, spent a ton of money and have someone who didn't make more you. Sorry they went to a trade school instead of an overpriced college. Maybe college tuition isn't high but I'm making an assumption like you.

Is 5 years in a trade school not comparable to a college degree?

Maybe you should work harder and get paid what you are worth. hell, engineers are a dime a dozen right now. They have always been overpaid. Some have seen the light and are using our apprenticeship program to pay off their college debt.

I stand by my opinion that the wankers on wall steet are bums and feel they are entitled to make lots of money just because they went to school...

I have been on multimillion dollar projects both union and non..............Never on any non-union job did we have the BS that occurred on the union ones. Now, I'm not saying every union force is this way, I ONLY have experience with the pipelining union.

You ask why I didn't do something about it.........Laughable. Do you know how a Non union guy, especially a young person is treated by the high and mighty union guys. EVERY TIME I called someone out on it or any of the other managers or engineers, we would get a call from our head office saying we need to just let it go. THe union guys had their back all the time.
Its apparent that Buzz and the Union area he is in works far different than the guys I had to deal with. Buzz, you say I shouldn't have been cashing and delivering paychecks.....YEA tried that!! You know what the response was from the $4,600 per week superintendent? It was, "you will deliver what they ask or all 200 of these guys will walk off and shut this job down"..........

WYO--I didn't come on here crying about my high priced college or saying that myeducation should be compared to someone in trade school................NONE of the guys i was even referring to went to trade school.
Also, a lot of nerve to sit there and tell me I should work harder to earn my pay........I busted my ass my entire life working to pay for my college as i went through. I logged all summer and over every single chrismas break. All logs hauled in a pickup or dumptruck, all cut and loaded by hand. Graduated with no loans to pay. I cut and sold firewood on the side to help make ends meet. And by the way, I never was a design engineer, I ended up being more of a Project Manager for these projects.

You would like to know what determines if someone is overpaid>>>> I think i can justify my arguement pretty easily when I'm working 80-90 hrs a week on average having millions of dollars a day of responsibility on my shoulders. This guy shows up as a laborer that was lucky to pass his drug test, and his only job is to move pipe skids from one place to another for 8-10 hrs per day and at the end of the week..........his check is same as mine (this doesnt happen on our non-union work). Pretty easy to justify some unfairness there.

Now, that being said, I think every person, regardless of Union or not, should be paid fairly. There are great guys and hard ass workers in every trade, I unfortunatly must have got the bottom of the barrel. I had my blasting foreman who was a damn good guy that had been union for 25 years and he was almost embarrassed to say it anymore. Said it was nothing like it used to be.
I agree with Buzz on the fact some laborers, operators, foreman, etc.....are worth more than the engineers. At some point, their experience is worth a lot more than a college education in my mind. I don't think for a second that JUST because someone has a college education, they should be paid more. Your pay should reflect your work and responsiblity. A guy in charge of running a project should not be making less money than a guy holding welding rod for his welder......just sayin'


I'm just going to agree to disagree here............this could go on and on, but don't feel it's of any worth to argue with a guy who knows nothing of my work ethic or background to tell me I need to work harder.

All I can say is I'm glad to be self employed and not have to deal with the union guys that i dealt with ever again.

And as a final comment to Buzz, it sounds to me like we have the same work ethic and background and sounds like it would have been handy as hell to have you on the last project I did. The way you describe how things are run in your neck of the woods is a very far cry from the ones I had to deal with.....

 

[thecrittergitter]

Dead on.... That piece of paper many times should be used as asswipe. I know many mechanical engineers that only know what they read and couldn't change the oil in their own cars. The good engineers listen up when the good skilled trades guys tell them how things need to be because they have been there and done it. You can't learn experience in school.

I could use mine for that Since I don't even use it anymore
But for the record, I can change the oil in my car

 

[BuzzH]

cirttergetter,

Let me tell you how I would have handled that paycheck deal.

I first would have made sure that there was nothing in the contract that said you had to cash their checks, take it to a bank, etc. (highly unlikely it was).

The next thing I would have done is approach the union steward and explain the deal...like an adult.

If no resolution, I'd of immediately filed a grievance against the Union, which is totally within the right of any company. If at that point, they werent pissing down both legs, which they should have been, I would have requested a meeting in a neutral facility where we could exchange information regarding what is...and isnt in the contract as per the handling of paychecks (at this stage formal grievance).

I would read their official document and if I felt they had any leg to stand on (again very unlikely), I would look into it. More than likely I would have taken their sorry excuse for the childish behavior of their employees and ripped it up right in their face.

I'd be in arbitration faster than you can say impass panel...and likely have them in front of an FLRA , MSPB or equivelant. The next likely to happen would be you getting a call from the Union with a formal apology because if that went to arbitration they'd be walloped...not pounded...I mean walloped.

Tails would be tucked and someone would have some serious explaining to do...the last thing they would have done is walk off the job. Mainly because its spelled out very clearly in the contract language that they cant for things other than those in violation of the contract. Typical contract language also says that formal negotiations must happen between both parties with things not found in the contract, or if there are changes made to the contract after the initial agreement.

I'd reckon, those guys would have had ZERO luck with me...I dont suffer fools or their inappropriate behavior....just the way it is...union or not.

 

[livnright]

first off doing something you at least dont or wont start hating. we are scratching out a living. and i worked construction. and the down side of union is you get to retire at 55 and while all your non union friends are still working. proving what a man they are. lots of solo hunting for me. keep the faith brother.

 

[thecrittergitter]

first off doing something you at least dont or wont start hating. we are scratching out a living. and i worked construction. and the down side of union is you get to retire at 55 and while all your non union friends are still working. proving what a man they are. lots of solo hunting for me. keep the faith brother.

I've got nothing to prove to anyone...........No Union for me and i'm 33, lots of solo hunting for me

 

[fowladdict]

I've got nothing to prove to anyone...........No Union for me and i'm 33, lots of solo hunting for me

Some of us would get to hunt as much as you, but our wives aren't as understanding as yours.

 

[thecrittergitter]

Some of us would get to hunt as much as you, but our wives aren't as understanding as yours.

Yea, your probably right...............i definately married a gem! She totally drew the short straw