Public Land Access on a Map

[jryoung]

FIn posted a comment on 24hourcampfire (in Sreekers same thread about elk for newbies over there) about his seminar at the RMEF Elk Camp this weekend.

Public Land Elk - To tag one, you have to find one


A thought occurred to me about how to identify where public land is blocked? Because I think I can identify where elk may be, but what about missing the obvious and not knowing where a road is blocked or other obstacle that prevents access.

Do you have a way of identifying access restrictions to areas that may only have one or two roads into the area? Certainly if there are a handful of roads accessing the public land it shouldn't be a problem, but what about some areas that may only have one or two access points? How can you tell if there are no locked gates from looking at a map?

 

[Jwill]

MVUM's are good, but they're only for Forest Service land. I usually have several maps - Delorme Gazetteer, BLM, USFS, and USGS, if I have questions about a road I try calling the managing agency, which usually works. It's not always easy to get from the receptionist to somebody who knows what roads are open though...

 

[Topgun 30-06]

You've asked a great question because many newbies to western hunting look at a map and see all the red showing the roads, buy or draw a tag, and then get out there and find out the roads in a lot of areas are not public roads and they have no place to hunt because the public roads don't legally access the land they planned to hunt. One clue to be very cautious about is if an area that looks good has easy to draw tags. Many times that's a giveaway that you'll have problems accessing the public land. I very seldom hunt USFS land and they have their own maps that are usually real good, so I won't cover that and will cover basically BLM and state lands. Colored BLM maps are where to start when you pick out the unit you want to hunt and they'll give you an idea of the public roads maintained by state or county taxpayers money. Those are usually fully accessible and legal for anyone to use unless there is a bridge out for repairs or something like that and many go through public land. The best way to finalize the area you plan on going to BEFORE you buy licenses and get too involved is to get the map of the county. That is usually much more detailed and will show all the roads the county maintains and that's what you're looking for. If there are enough of those that hit or go through public land you're on your way to a hunt if you can draw the tag.

 

[Carrion Carrier]

It's tough. I've been working with the public lands engineers (both USFS and FWP) to compile a list of road status for my GPS. That is not easy. The USFS (at least the Lolo NF) only has paper easements in file cabinets. The State does not respond very well and they do not seem to have e-copies either. Many roads on the Lolo NF (even ones with FR#'s) are almost entirely public (with easements) and then a quarter mile section will not have one, making it illegal to cross that parcel. This is a very difficult situation to figure out. Even FS employees do not understand when/where it's legal to access.

 

[Carrion Carrier]

and so far none of the parcels where the crazy guy comes out and shoots at you have easements and those crazy guys are actually correct. Don' get a trespass violation, they are stiff! (FYI - I've never gotten one, but it's easy to do)

 

[ridgeghost]

He is very correct about that! The fines are stiff and even more to fight in a court of law.The easiest way to not break the law is to stay away from Montana to hunt. I used Google maps and spent $400 dollars on a Garmin GPS and was wrong according to FWP. I didnt cross any fences and saw no signs. My programs sais I was on USFS. $2000 later Iam still fighting the trespass charge. I wont be hunting Montana again.

 

[1_pointer]

Colored BLM maps are where to start when you pick out the unit you want to hunt and they'll give you an idea of the public roads maintained by state or county taxpayers money.

IME BLM 100K maps show all roads and I am unaware how to tell the private from public roads from those maps. If you have any tips it'd be appreciated.

 

[TheWeatherman]

I have found that the HuntingGPSmaps card for my buddies GPS helps a lot here in CO. It shows private land and names, public land, BLM, all the good stuff that helps out greatly when we plan our hunts and fishing adventures in CO. But it would depend on your state.

 

[SFC B]

Another good tip is too make sure and carry saws and tools for lesser improved roads. On our trip last fall we had to cut through two large blowdown aspen to get tour camp.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

He is very correct about that! The fines are stiff and even more to fight in a court of law.The easiest way to not break the law is to stay away from Montana to hunt. I used Google maps and spent $400 dollars on a Garmin GPS and was wrong according to FWP. I didnt cross any fences and saw no signs. My programs sais I was on USFS. $2000 later Iam still fighting the trespass charge. I wont be hunting Montana again.

***That's really a copout as fences many times don't designate property lines and the majority of jurisdictions don't require private land boundaries to be posted with signs. Did you have a landowner chip in your $400 Garmin GPS when you got caught? I hunt Wyoming and have a Garmin that cost $153 and I got the chip for it. Last year I found it was accurate within 10 feet of every surveyor pin and section line I was looking for and I wouldn't be out there without it. You said your program said you were on USFS and that might have been correct, but did you cross private land illegally to get there is the question and probable reason for the ticket.

 

[CabinFever]

IME BLM 100K maps show all roads and I am unaware how to tell the private from public roads from those maps. If you have any tips it'd be appreciated.

As far as I know there is one and only one source that can truly identify if a road is public or private. You know darn well the adjacent landowner won't help, and I've called sheriffs, rangers, owners of the public land I'm trying to get to, FWP bios, none of them no the answers. The only place you can get the true info is the Courthouse, and who has time to go to the courthouse?

On FS maps the yellow highlighted roads are USFS access roads so those should for sure be open, but there is no map I'm aware of that defines all those other little roads.

 

[npaden]

I know over in the eastern part of the state the key is whether the road is "publicly maintained" or not.

A big property owner wanted to block access across their land on a road that had been publicly maintained for decades. It wasn't much of a road, (still isn't) but it was and still is the only road in and out of some really great country.

They now have big signs that if you leave the road at all it is trespassing, but as long as you stay on the road while you are driving through private property you are okay.

I would think a numbered forest service road would be considered a publicly maintained road and fall into the same category.

 

[RobG]

***That's really a copout as fences many times don't designate property lines and the majority of jurisdictions don't require private land boundaries to be posted with signs. Did you have a landowner chip in your $400 Garmin GPS when you got caught? I hunt Wyoming and have a Garmin that cost $153 and I got the chip for it. Last year I found it was accurate within 10 feet of every surveyor pin and section line I was looking for and I wouldn't be out there without it. You said your program said you were on USFS and that might have been correct, but did you cross private land illegally to get there is the question and probable reason for the ticket.

The area where the gentleman got busted has many private inholdings inside the National Forest. Just because you are on USFS does NOT mean it is public.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

The area where the gentleman got busted has many private inholdings inside the National Forest. Just because you are on USFS does NOT mean it is public.
'

***Then if there are private lands there and you're on one of them means you are NOT on USFS since it can't be both!!! Deeded private property and Federal grazing permits on public land are two different things and many times ranchers with the latter think they can keep everyone off that property. They actually solved that problem out in the Black Hills of SD because of the intermingled private lands inside that huge area and the private property owners are required to post their property if they don't want people on it. If it isn't posted and they see you on it, all they can do is ask you to leave under no penalty. The rest of SD is not like that and doesn't require posting. I know of one large ranch in Wyoming near where I hunt that has a public road going all the way through it for 20+ miles and at the north and south gates they have signs showing the ranch name and that it's through access only, which is a bunch of baloney and a big bluff. There are many places along either side of that road that are either BLM or state property and there is no way they can keep you from hunting it during a legal season.

 

[Straight Arrow]

if there are private lands there and you're on one of them means you are NOT on USFS

That is correct. However, I think the point is that you may travel inside the boundary of a particular national forest area and inadvertently trespass on a private inholding within the forest boundary. (No fences, few markers, no gps recognition of national forest private inholdings, etc.)

You are in the national forest (boundary) but are still trespassing.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

SS---I understand that it could happen, but why would anyone take a chance on trespassing if they know there are areas like that and it isn't required that they be signed? How big are the properties where this may have happened to the member because my Wyoming landowner chip has ownerships down to lands that are less than 40 acre parcels? It is, after all, up to the hunter to know where he's at all the time to avoid problems.

 

[RobG]

That is correct. However, I think the point is that you may travel inside the boundary of a particular national forest area and inadvertently trespass on a private inholding within the forest boundary. (No fences, few markers, no gps recognition of national forest private inholdings, etc.)

You are in the national forest (boundary) but are still trespassing.

Yes, I misspoke. The lands in question are private, but they are within the National Forest Boundary. You can determine the ownership with one of those gps hunting map chips or a national forest land ownership map.

So I should have said "Just because a property is within the national forest does NOT mean it is necessarily public."

 

[Topgun 30-06]

RobG---I do really wonder if the member that got the trespass ticket is telling us everything because if he had a Garmin WITH the microchip I don't believe he would have been ticketed unless he doesn't know how to use it or knowingly trespassed. He mentioned having a Google map in his post and I'm not aware that it would have land ownership patterns to keep you out of trouble, but I may be wrong.

EDIT: I didn't realize there were two threads where this member was badmouthing the FWP, but from the other thread it appears all he had was a Google map and a Garmin without the proper landowner chip or download to show the land patterns. If that's the case, I can certainly see how he coul get into problems. I feel bad that he got a ticket, but he should learn from his mistake, take it like a man, and get the proper equipment to have fun in Montana or anywhere else he chooses to go.

 

[1_pointer]

As far as I know there is one and only one source that can truly identify if a road is public or private. You know darn well the adjacent landowner won't help, and I've called sheriffs, rangers, owners of the public land I'm trying to get to, FWP bios, none of them no the answers. The only place you can get the true info is the Courthouse, and who has time to go to the courthouse?

On FS maps the yellow highlighted roads are USFS access roads so those should for sure be open, but there is no map I'm aware of that defines all those other little roads.

That's been my experience as well. I didn't know if there was something I was missing.