Privatization kills both Resident and Nonresident DIY hunting opportunity

[bulldawg10]

What's your ballpark number your thinking?

In each area, it ranges. Up north where tons of private exists and smaller bulls. $2 to $4k.

Central, $5 to $10k

Gila where only a few landowner tags exists and are for sale...some are $7500 to $20k.

They always like to use the example of the Gila tag that cost $20k as a negative. It's not.

The reason it cost that, only like 8 gun tags were issued to land owners last year and like 5 bow tags in Unit 16A

The reason so few tags to land owners, there is almost no private land in those areas.

 

[Nick87]

The reason it cost that, only like 8 gun tags were issued to land owners last year and like 5 bow tags in Unit 16A

No, The reason it cost that is because they can charge that.

 

[Nameless Range]

First off, the authorization for the tag was in the hands of a New Mexican land owner most likely. A huge percentage of the landowner list is comprised of New Mexico addresses.

Then they sold it....a New Mexico resident could buy it just the same as a non-resident. It's equal opportunity at that point.

But in the event it is sold to a non-resident, the G&F is getting 10x the revenue for it too. Which goes back into wildlife.

That's an interesting take on equal opportunity.

If I were a New Mexican, I would be pretty sour at such a viewpoint. Equal opportunity should apply to the beneficiaries(New Mexicans) of the Trust( New Mexico's Wildlife). Not the beneficiaries + the rest of the United States of America. At that point, the trustees have implemented a system that fails the beneficiaries in my mind.

 

[Treeshark]

These tags are kind of like mini auction tags- many people have no issues when they’re sold off “for conservation” but freak out when states decide to allow their landowners the option of selling them.

The NAM isn’t hanging in the balance here- either it’s been destroyed long ago by auction/raffle tags (both scenarios more $$= more opportunity) or these don’t destroy it either.

I’m not sure what all the hand wringing is about other than that people just don’t like seeing other people get things they don’t also get.

 

[Nick87]

Not yet, as mentioned above (haven’t drawn).

Would like to in the future, probably via LO tag if I can’t pull anything.

Why bother trying to pull a tag via draw? Just buy the voucher.

 

[Treeshark]

I’m having trouble viewing that as a serious question, man- if it was I apologize but not going to engage in bickering.

 

[bulldawg10]

In each area, it ranges. Up north where tons of private exists and smaller bulls. $2 to $4k.

Central, $5 to $10k

Gila where only a few landowner tags exists and are for sale...some are $7500 to $20k.

They always like to us the example of the Gila tag that cost $20k as a negative. It's not.

The reason it cost that, only like 8 gun tags were issued to land owners last year and like 5 bow tags in Unit 16A

The reason so few tags to land owners, there is almost no private land in those areas.

Why bother trying to pull a tag via draw? Just buy the voucher.

Why not do both have multiple options in your tool kit fot the ability to hunt elk. Not just one.

Try and draw, if you don't and really want to hunt buy a tag. Btw, Treeshark, draw is open now and landowners dont get their tags until after the draw results are out.

Great system how it's laid out like that.

 

[Nick87]

I’m having trouble viewing that as a serious question, man- if it was I apologize but not going to engage in bickering.

No I'm serious what is stopping you from buying one. Because you seem all for them but haven't bought one so I'm having a hard time making the connection? I know what's stopping me it's $$.

 

[bulldawg10]

No I'm serious what is stopping you from buying one. Because you seem all for them but haven't bought one so I'm having a hard time making the connection? I know what's stopping me it's $$.

If money is your issues, be happy you live in a place with public land, and a draw. Go about anywhere east and it's gonna cost you just as much, if not more to hunt deer. Go to AZ and not draw for years upon years with no other outlet to aquire elk hunting rights.

Again, at least you have the option to buy one....how can you not want to atleast have the option. It's better than no option and only have a draw 100%

Give me options, don't box me in....if I really want to hunt a $20k Gila tag, I could save for years and years and do it.

If I want to buy a tag in Northern NM for $3500 because I really want an elk and haven't draw for 6 years, I'll buy one more often. But atleast I have that option.

 

[Nick87]

If money is your issues, be happy you live in a place with public land, and a draw. Go about anywhere east and it's gonna cost you just as much, if not more to hunt deer.

I don't live in a place with much public or a draw. Costs me about $25 to hunt deer and I'm way east of New Mexico.

 

[bulldawg10]

I don't live in a place with much public or a draw. Costs me about $25 to hunt deer and I'm way east of New Mexico.

Cool, and it's like $60-$80 for an elk in NM for NM residents when they draw.

You must be rich or wealthy and have land...not everyone has that. See how that works?

Maybe you just have permission on some place.

MOST people are gonna spend thousands to get hunting access in Texas or Indiana or Kentucky, or Mississippi....just examples.

 

[Nick87]

You must be rich or wealthy and have land...

Yah that's it.

 

[sjl2012]

Did y’all know that compared to Arizona New Mexican issues:

47% more elk licenses, but
13% less public resident,
58% less public nonresident, and
558% more nonresident licenses (public and private).

The cause? Privatization of elk licenses. Arizona has no outfitter draw set aside or private landowner licenses for any species.

Big game license privatization is horrible for both Resident and Nonresident DIY hunters.

We need to reduce and stop big game license privatization so both resident and nonresident hunters of average means don’t lose our hunting opportunity to wealthy hunters that can afford privatized licenses.

US western state resident hunters need to stick together and make hunting more public and keep it that way.

Sounds like you should probably move to Arizona. Did you ever look into those "resident" application numbers? Might want to start there first and clean up that application pool. Also, the licenses are issued to landowners, resident or nonresident that pay some form of tax to the state, and they transfer them to whomever they choose and I'm pretty sure the outfitter pool is open to residents and non residents alike.

Also for the guys saying Arizona isn't privatized, those larger ranches ARE privatized, if you draw a tag you can expect to pay an outfitter $5k and up, to have access to those private ranches. There are whispers some of the more recent larger animals have cost $250k and up for access, which is why some of the auction tags sell for what they do. If you take away eplus, that is what New Mexico will be. If you added eplus or PLO tags to Arizona, such as in Colorado, you would see those costs for private access come down, IMO.

The animal may belong to the state but access to that animal belongs to the landowner when it's on their property and we all know that an animal will go to the place of least disturbance once hunting season starts. Each state has tried to figure out the best way to manage those animals, opportunity, and quality with the tools they have. It's not a job I envy. I don't think we'll ever reverse any of this but you slow it down or stop its progress by opposing the transfer/sell of federal lands to states, that's the only way you keep low cost public access to hunting.

There is some form of privatization in every state, it's just easier to see in New Mexico because the prices are posted online. This wasn't an issue when resident draw odds were over 60%, it only became an issue in recent years when the resident pool got drastically larger, while the states population remained the same, and draw odds decreased. Again, this is all my opinion from 30 years of observation.

 

[Valley1320]

No. My land is for wildlife.
But it has helped provide an incentive to off set the taxes I now pay on the land for one thing. I have never done it for a return on investment. There has been no return, except I don't trust many outfitters anymore.
But seeing a local kid fill their families freezer has been one.
Another is seeing a Vet get a chance to fill a tag.
I gave 2 tags to a local family dealing with cancer in the family last year.

I love what you do hank and you are doing it right. But ill be honest here there's not alot of landowners that are doing it like that. Of all the private land owners I know that get elk permits only you and one other does it that way. Seems like all the others I can think of right now are all about the greed and don't really care.

 

[Valley1320]

Get rid of the outfitter welfare pool.
There fixed it....

 

[MTGomer]

These tags are kind of like mini auction tags- many people have no issues when they’re sold off “for conservation” but freak out when states decide to allow their landowners the option of selling them.

The NAM isn’t hanging in the balance here- either it’s been destroyed long ago by auction/raffle tags (both scenarios more $$= more opportunity) or these don’t destroy it either.

I’m not sure what all the hand wringing is about other than that people just don’t like seeing other people get things they don’t also get.

While the actual on the ground benefits of auction tags in some states is certainly debatable, a single auction tag raises hundreds of thousands of dollars without taking anything out of the draw for the regular hunter, and in many instances can be argued to have increased opportunity for the regular hunter.
The privatization system like New Mexico, or Utah has takes anywhere from dozens to hundreds, or perhaps thousands of tags that otherwise would be available to people regardless of their wealth, and makes them available only to a small subset of people.

The people that I know in New Mexico that are most outspoken against the way the system is set up aren’t that way because of envy. They can afford to buy NM landowner tags themselves, or really any hunt they want, anywhere.

 

[MTGomer]

Sounds like you should probably move to Arizona. Did you ever look into those "resident" application numbers? Might want to start there first and clean up that application pool. Also, the licenses are issued to landowners, resident or nonresident that pay some form of tax to the state, and they transfer them to whomever they choose and I'm pretty sure the outfitter pool is open to residents and non residents alike.

Also for the guys saying Arizona isn't privatized, those larger ranches ARE privatized, if you draw a tag you can expect to pay an outfitter $5k and up, to have access to those private ranches. There are whispers some of the more recent larger animals have cost $250k and up for access, which is why some of the auction tags sell for what they do. If you take away eplus, that is what New Mexico will be. If you added eplus or PLO tags to Arizona, such as in Colorado, you would see those costs for private access come down, IMO.

The animal may belong to the state but access to that animal belongs to the landowner when it's on their property and we all know that an animal will go to the place of least disturbance once hunting season starts. Each state has tried to figure out the best way to manage those animals, opportunity, and quality with the tools they have. It's not a job I envy. I don't think we'll ever reverse any of this but you slow it down or stop its progress by opposing the transfer/sell of federal lands to states, that's the only way you keep low cost public access to hunting.

There is some form of privatization in every state, it's just easier to see in New Mexico because the prices are posted online. This wasn't an issue when resident draw odds were over 60%, it only became an issue in recent years when the resident pool got drastically larger, while the states population remained the same, and draw odds decreased. Again, this is all my opinion from 30 years of observation.

Wildlife in Arizona is not privatized. Access to real property, is a right that comes with owning real property, and property owners get to determine who has access, and can charge accordingly. That is like one of the basic fundamental principles of our nation. It is entirely different than the idea that wildlife can be bought and sold by private individuals for financial gain, because wildlife is a public trust resource, and not a real property right.


In addition to that, almost all of the good hunting in Arizona is on public land, with the exception of a large ranch in one of the limited opportunity bundle units and a couple smaller ranches in unit 10. There’s also the private big Bo Ranch that offers public access for damn near free.

 

[SCliving Outdoors]

Like I said make the LO tags resident only and ranch only and lets see the generous NM residents step up.
Get rid of the outfitter welfare pool.
There fixed it....oh your a NR, good luck in the draw.

I think this sounds fair. Keep the outfitter tags in the draw so anyone can draw them. I'd like to see it a straight 90/10 split with the rules above.

 

[rogerthat]

Cool, and it's like $60-$80 for an elk in NM for NM residents when they draw.

You must be rich or wealthy and have land...not everyone has that. See how that works?

Maybe you just have permission on some place.

MOST people are gonna spend thousands to get hunting access in Texas or Indiana or Kentucky, or Mississippi....just examples.

You’re making our point. We don’t want the west to turn in to that which you describe. UW landowner tags being sold is just that. Paying big money to hunt. No thanks. I will fish. Believe it or not something’s money can’t buy

 

[bulldawg10]

You’re making our point. We don’t want the west to turn in to that which you describe. UW landowner tags being sold is just that. Paying big money to hunt. No thanks. I will fish. Believe it or not something’s money can’t buy

I'm not making your point though...Nobody is trying to take tags from the NM Draw and give to landowners to sell. We are talking about an entirely different system. The NM authorizations are essentially the right to hunt elk on that private land, derived from the habitat and herd numbers that use private lands. The authorizations that landowners can sell are essentially trespass fees.

And in the event they are Unit Wide, that means the private land is open to the public, which is every elk hunter with a tag in the unit. That's better than the select few that otherwise would have permission only thru a trespass fee. This also increases access to more public lands too.

The incentive improvements of private lands have increased elk numbers to allow for public land tags to expand as well.