BunkerBean
New member
Now I just need to sell my rifle and I can get my shotgun.
Perfect Chukar Gun
- Thread starter BunkerBean
- Start date
Something light, holds lots of shells, and doesn't mind getting scratched or used as a walking stick. Lots of ways to get there, but those are my criteria.
Ithaca- Can you define 'better'? I would think that with the right shells and chokes the area covered by the shot would be similar, with the 12ga having more holes.
For you others, I'd like to hear about the use of 20ga's! Enough ooomph to get the job done? 30-40yds possible?
Ithaca- Can you define 'better'? I would think that with the right shells and chokes the area covered by the shot would be similar, with the 12ga having more holes.
For you others, I'd like to hear about the use of 20ga's! Enough ooomph to get the job done? 30-40yds possible?
Ithaca 37
New member
1 pointer, since you're getting to be a real serious bird hunter, and have a scientific mind, here's a great book for you that will explain everything you'll ever need to know about shooting shotguns:
Shotgunning--The Art and Science by Bob Brister. Do a google search for it and I'm sure you'll find plenty of info about it. It's probably the best book ever written about shotgunning. Here's a review:
"Bob Brister takes into account shot "stringing" and its effects on targets/gamebirds. Although most shotgun patterns are measured by the percentage of pellets striking a 30" circle at a measured distance; all pellets do not arrive at the same instant. Bristers method shows what really happens with a clever system that illustrates the effect of shot when applied to a moving target.Want to shoot better and have a better understanding of why you miss? Buy the book!"
The quote above kinda answers your question. A 20 ga 1 oz load has a longer shot string than a 12 ga. 1 oz load. You want a shorter shot string because it puts more pellets into the bird. Best load for chukars in most guns is a 12 ga 1 and 1/8 oz load of 7 1/2s. That's a scientific fact, not just an opinion of mine. Although I'd say I've confirmed it in my mind after shooting over 200 chukars a year for at least 20 years.
I'm sure you can find plenty of hunters who will argue about that and give all kinds of exceptions, but I was taught that by one of my hunting buddies who's shot alot more chukars than me and has been doing it for over forty years. He was on the Army skeet team and the US Olympic skeet team and is the most passionate student of shotgun shooting I've ever known (and I've known and shot with a few Olympian team shooters, national champions and world champions). He probably has every book ever written about shotguns and every video about shooting them.
Now, before everyone starts taking exception to the remark about the best load, everyone should pattern their guns with different loads to find out which patterns best in their gun. Each manufacturer's load will pattern differently. Bob Bristers book spends chapters on patterning. There are exceptions, but usually in most guns the load I mentioned is best in most guns for a chukar load. It might not be best for a quail or dove load. You have to consider the size of the bird. Then you have to experiment with patterning all the different powder and pellet combinations by the different manufacturers. To be sure of killing a chukar you want to have at least six pellets hit the body. I know somebody will say one pellet in the head or heart will kill a chukar, but I'm talking about average chukar shots on average days and ranges.
I'm basing all this stuff I'm saying on studies I've read on what it takes to kill different size birds at different ranges. The live pigeon shooting competitors really get into that because they bet many thousands of dollars on live pigeon shoots.
Anyone who wants to debate any of this should do themselves a favor and read Bristor's book first, and everything else they can find by Bristor. Then they'll know what they're talking about. Bristor won World Championships at skeet, sporting clays, live duck shooting, live pigeon shooting, international skeet and just about everything else. He wasn't into trap shooting----too easy.
Shotgunning--The Art and Science by Bob Brister. Do a google search for it and I'm sure you'll find plenty of info about it. It's probably the best book ever written about shotgunning. Here's a review:
"Bob Brister takes into account shot "stringing" and its effects on targets/gamebirds. Although most shotgun patterns are measured by the percentage of pellets striking a 30" circle at a measured distance; all pellets do not arrive at the same instant. Bristers method shows what really happens with a clever system that illustrates the effect of shot when applied to a moving target.Want to shoot better and have a better understanding of why you miss? Buy the book!"
The quote above kinda answers your question. A 20 ga 1 oz load has a longer shot string than a 12 ga. 1 oz load. You want a shorter shot string because it puts more pellets into the bird. Best load for chukars in most guns is a 12 ga 1 and 1/8 oz load of 7 1/2s. That's a scientific fact, not just an opinion of mine. Although I'd say I've confirmed it in my mind after shooting over 200 chukars a year for at least 20 years.
I'm sure you can find plenty of hunters who will argue about that and give all kinds of exceptions, but I was taught that by one of my hunting buddies who's shot alot more chukars than me and has been doing it for over forty years. He was on the Army skeet team and the US Olympic skeet team and is the most passionate student of shotgun shooting I've ever known (and I've known and shot with a few Olympian team shooters, national champions and world champions). He probably has every book ever written about shotguns and every video about shooting them.
Now, before everyone starts taking exception to the remark about the best load, everyone should pattern their guns with different loads to find out which patterns best in their gun. Each manufacturer's load will pattern differently. Bob Bristers book spends chapters on patterning. There are exceptions, but usually in most guns the load I mentioned is best in most guns for a chukar load. It might not be best for a quail or dove load. You have to consider the size of the bird. Then you have to experiment with patterning all the different powder and pellet combinations by the different manufacturers. To be sure of killing a chukar you want to have at least six pellets hit the body. I know somebody will say one pellet in the head or heart will kill a chukar, but I'm talking about average chukar shots on average days and ranges.
I'm basing all this stuff I'm saying on studies I've read on what it takes to kill different size birds at different ranges. The live pigeon shooting competitors really get into that because they bet many thousands of dollars on live pigeon shoots.
Anyone who wants to debate any of this should do themselves a favor and read Bristor's book first, and everything else they can find by Bristor. Then they'll know what they're talking about. Bristor won World Championships at skeet, sporting clays, live duck shooting, live pigeon shooting, international skeet and just about everything else. He wasn't into trap shooting----too easy.
Ithaca 37
New member
Here's an article by Bristor to give you an idea of how technical he can get about every little aspect of shooting!
http://www.briley.com/articles/game_of_seeing.html
Here's what he says about Jess Briley. BTW, I started using Stan Baker ckokes about twenty five years ago.
"Bob Brister, a Houston outdoor writer who is possibly the world’s top authority on shotguns, remembers those early days. “I have known Jess since the beginning because we both shot at the Greater Houston Gun Club,” Brister said. “We had a bar in the club and after we finished shooting, we’d all go back for a drink or a beer. I have very vivid memories of the guys giving Jess a tough time about working on these chokes. They’d kinda joke about it behind his back, and say, ‘Well, that can’t work. Those things are too thin and nobody is going to put those things in his gun.’
“Jess was already building ‘em in his garage and shooting ‘em,” he remembered. “I was one of the first ones to put ‘em in a fine guns. I had a pair of SO3 EELL Berettas that I shot pigeons with and I put ‘em in mine. Of course, there were a lot of people knockin’ the chokes. The gun industry didn’t like it, for example. There were other people making chokes. One of them was Stan Baker in Seattle. Without calling anyone by name, Stan spoke out against it. He said, ‘Thin is thin; too thin is too thin.’ Stan put chokes in guns all right, but he was expanding the barrel and then making screw-in chokes. The problem that some of those chokes had with that system was getting the chokes to shoot to the point of impact. I know because I had a set that didn’t.
“Jess figured out very quickly a way to do that,” Brister insisted. “He can get those barrels tapped for those chokes absolutely perfectly concentric to bore every time. Jess made tools for the oil patch and he reads everything. He is very much into science and he loves metals. I asked him recently if he was a master machinist. He said, ‘Well, I don’t know, but I’ve been at it for 60 years and I just love it. I would prefer to call myself a machine shop bum.’
“In those days there were very few steels used in either choke or barrel manufacturing that were really good,” Brister related, “but Jess knew a hell of a lot about high tech steels. He can tell you where they came from and their backgrounds. Some were developed for the Manhattan Project and some were developed to hold engines on World War II airplanes. Jess got into these high-quality steels … very high quality steel. He knew not only about the hardness of it, but the yield strength factor. He is, in a way, a genius at what he’s interested in. Jess can tell you a little bit about anything you want to discuss … physics, anything. He’s read up on everything and he knows pretty much what’s going on.”
http://www.briley.com/articles/one_on_one.html
One of my hunting buddies lived in the same town as Briley and used to help him test his chokes when he first started developing them. He also used to hunt ducks and quail with Bristor and he used to tell me all kinds of great stories about Bristor's shooting abilities. Bristor usually tried to get two birds with each shot and did it a lot.
http://www.briley.com/articles/game_of_seeing.html
Here's what he says about Jess Briley. BTW, I started using Stan Baker ckokes about twenty five years ago.
"Bob Brister, a Houston outdoor writer who is possibly the world’s top authority on shotguns, remembers those early days. “I have known Jess since the beginning because we both shot at the Greater Houston Gun Club,” Brister said. “We had a bar in the club and after we finished shooting, we’d all go back for a drink or a beer. I have very vivid memories of the guys giving Jess a tough time about working on these chokes. They’d kinda joke about it behind his back, and say, ‘Well, that can’t work. Those things are too thin and nobody is going to put those things in his gun.’
“Jess was already building ‘em in his garage and shooting ‘em,” he remembered. “I was one of the first ones to put ‘em in a fine guns. I had a pair of SO3 EELL Berettas that I shot pigeons with and I put ‘em in mine. Of course, there were a lot of people knockin’ the chokes. The gun industry didn’t like it, for example. There were other people making chokes. One of them was Stan Baker in Seattle. Without calling anyone by name, Stan spoke out against it. He said, ‘Thin is thin; too thin is too thin.’ Stan put chokes in guns all right, but he was expanding the barrel and then making screw-in chokes. The problem that some of those chokes had with that system was getting the chokes to shoot to the point of impact. I know because I had a set that didn’t.
“Jess figured out very quickly a way to do that,” Brister insisted. “He can get those barrels tapped for those chokes absolutely perfectly concentric to bore every time. Jess made tools for the oil patch and he reads everything. He is very much into science and he loves metals. I asked him recently if he was a master machinist. He said, ‘Well, I don’t know, but I’ve been at it for 60 years and I just love it. I would prefer to call myself a machine shop bum.’
“In those days there were very few steels used in either choke or barrel manufacturing that were really good,” Brister related, “but Jess knew a hell of a lot about high tech steels. He can tell you where they came from and their backgrounds. Some were developed for the Manhattan Project and some were developed to hold engines on World War II airplanes. Jess got into these high-quality steels … very high quality steel. He knew not only about the hardness of it, but the yield strength factor. He is, in a way, a genius at what he’s interested in. Jess can tell you a little bit about anything you want to discuss … physics, anything. He’s read up on everything and he knows pretty much what’s going on.”
http://www.briley.com/articles/one_on_one.html
One of my hunting buddies lived in the same town as Briley and used to help him test his chokes when he first started developing them. He also used to hunt ducks and quail with Bristor and he used to tell me all kinds of great stories about Bristor's shooting abilities. Bristor usually tried to get two birds with each shot and did it a lot.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
There's no doubt the 12 gauge is "better" than the 20 gauge. But, the same could be said for the 10 gauge being better than the 12 gauge. I can't imagine packing a 10 gauge around the hills to shoot a chukar. A 12 gauge is better than a 10 gauge in that regard. And, a 20 gauge is also better than a 12 for the same reason. It all depends on what you want.
1 pointer, yes 40 yards is very possible with a 20 gauge and the right load. I guess one thing to consider is if you're hunting with a good dog that retrieves, you can probably afford to not always kill every bird outright. But without a dog, I'd be more likely to want every bird stone dead when it hit the ground. In that case, go with a 12 gauge and a minimum of 1 1/8 of 6's, 1 1/4 would be better. I know Ithaca says 71/2's are the best, but I doubt it for those 50 to 60 yards shots. Even if you limit yourself to 40 yards, you'll misjudge the range sometimes, it's easy to do out in the wide open spaces.
1 pointer, yes 40 yards is very possible with a 20 gauge and the right load. I guess one thing to consider is if you're hunting with a good dog that retrieves, you can probably afford to not always kill every bird outright. But without a dog, I'd be more likely to want every bird stone dead when it hit the ground. In that case, go with a 12 gauge and a minimum of 1 1/8 of 6's, 1 1/4 would be better. I know Ithaca says 71/2's are the best, but I doubt it for those 50 to 60 yards shots. Even if you limit yourself to 40 yards, you'll misjudge the range sometimes, it's easy to do out in the wide open spaces.
Ithaca 37
New member
Best thing to do is pattern your gun at different yardages and see what range you're effective at. Then practice shooting clay targets at 30 and 40 yards to see how effective you are.
I wouldn't advise shooting at anything unless you're sure you can kill it. Don't count on a dog retrieving wounded birds. I've seen wounded birds set their wings and glide for 400 -500 yards. I've seen birds that didn't look like they were hit fly another hundred yards and then drop out of the sky stone dead. I've seen plenty of birds get rocked and keep right on flying.
Putting just one or two pellets into a bird will probably kill it eventually because, usually, some feather parts get pulled into the wound by the pellet and will eventually cause gangrene. I kill birds every year that have been hit earlier, maybe a week or two or three, and are slowly dying from their wounds.
I wouldn't advise shooting at anything unless you're sure you can kill it. Don't count on a dog retrieving wounded birds. I've seen wounded birds set their wings and glide for 400 -500 yards. I've seen birds that didn't look like they were hit fly another hundred yards and then drop out of the sky stone dead. I've seen plenty of birds get rocked and keep right on flying.
Putting just one or two pellets into a bird will probably kill it eventually because, usually, some feather parts get pulled into the wound by the pellet and will eventually cause gangrene. I kill birds every year that have been hit earlier, maybe a week or two or three, and are slowly dying from their wounds.
Ithaca's making some great points and the book "Shotgunning" is a great place to start if you want to learn about how the pattern, shot string, shot size and lead come together. I read it cover to cover when I got it years ago.
I also agree that a lot of hunters rely on the dog instead of doing the job right in the first place. I see birds that drop dead long after being shot and the hunter doesn't even know because they don't pay attention to what is happening and pass it off as a miss.
I also agree that a lot of hunters rely on the dog instead of doing the job right in the first place. I see birds that drop dead long after being shot and the hunter doesn't even know because they don't pay attention to what is happening and pass it off as a miss.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
I'm not saying a guy with a dog can be careless in his shooting of chukar, just that a guy without a dog should be extra careful in selecting the right gun/load, and limiting the distance of his shots. It can be very difficult, if not almost impossible, to retrieve a chukar that only has a broken wing, without a dog to chase it down.
Thanks for the info! I've been meaning to get Brister's book, just haven't gotten around to it yet. I hope this is the one where he shoots moving paper targets being pulled by his wife in the family station wagon! 
Interesting note on the 7 1/2 shot. Upon recommendation of someone I toted 4s on my first real bird hunt. I imagine it was mostly me, but my hit percentages went way up after moving to 6s. Either the pattern changed or the added pellets helped. Either way more birds dropped. I've been thinking of moving to smaller pellets than 6s for birds smaller than pheasants/sage grouse. Partly due to the impression I've seen 1oz 8s out of 20ga leave on jacks at 30-40yds. I plan on sticking with the 12ga, IMO is about perfect for an all-arounder. I just need to spend more time shooting/patterning it.
PS- I'm not scientific minded, I work in Range!
Interesting note on the 7 1/2 shot. Upon recommendation of someone I toted 4s on my first real bird hunt. I imagine it was mostly me, but my hit percentages went way up after moving to 6s. Either the pattern changed or the added pellets helped. Either way more birds dropped. I've been thinking of moving to smaller pellets than 6s for birds smaller than pheasants/sage grouse. Partly due to the impression I've seen 1oz 8s out of 20ga leave on jacks at 30-40yds. I plan on sticking with the 12ga, IMO is about perfect for an all-arounder. I just need to spend more time shooting/patterning it.
PS- I'm not scientific minded, I work in Range!
T Bone
Well-known member
1 1/4 oz of 7.5 shot in a 12 guage with IC choke works great for chukars and pheasant/sharptail. Most people around here consider 5 and 4 shot mandatory to kill a pheasant.
Buffalobob
New member
SKB 600 20 gauge 3 Inch Federals with 1 1/4 ounces of #6.
Ithaca 37
New member
Yup, That's the one.
BunkerBean
New member
Well I think the 12 gets the nod.
Ultrahunter
Active member
Some days I think that a .22-250 would be ideal when those devil birds are taunting me from across the canyon!!!
