NM E-PLUS System under review.

[hank4elk]

I went to a meeting last week in Soccorro with NMG&F officials ,with presentations of the various proposals for changes for Elk landowner programs,comments & such. 1st time for full review & change,they say. Suppossed to be done every 4 years since inception of program in '05. I have only seen tweeks since '09.
Public meetings next week. Comment period online ongoing.
This is available under NMG&F....Commission....Propossals......etc.
Time for all the landowner haters to come out of the woodwork.
They pretty much threw a bunch of ideas,some contradictory, at a wall.
Then they will present a proposal,which we will not know the final idea was,to NM G&F Commission. Then they will vote on changes.....all before major election .
Can you say FUBAR?

 

[Khunter]

What I have heard is that they’re going to toss out some of the ranches that have no real elk habitat but they already know they’re going to maintain the number of landowner welfare tags and just re-allocate them back to the remaining ranches after removing ranches. Have you heard this?

 

[hank4elk]

...some could be cut(OK gotta meet req.'s),they say ALL will be reviewed & graded(never going to happen),they will use goggle earth for their science/surveys( really),could go to all RO(deeded or leasedlands too?),could just go OTC (free for all with no limit on tags),all ranches must be contiguous,some can straddle units still.......
...it's a regular Jackson Pollak of ideas........

 

[Labman]

Hank, do you have cliff notes of the meeting in Socorro? How many folks attended?

The reality of the situation is that "they" have their minds made up. The new scoring system for properties is going to happen, as a matter of fact it was implemented last year. These guys just do what they want, it is crazy. I spoke with a biologist, who I won't name, and he concurred. He said that when he brings up to the guys in Santa Fe they essentially don't care what he has to say, they have their minds made up already.

I was not happy to see that they implemented the scoring system without public input, a heads up would have given the public some knowledge as to the simple fact that the system had changed. They issued zero notice that things were going to be different, and to change the rules with 2 min to go in the 4th quarter was simply BS. But, what do you do? I guess that you just have to move on and play by the new rules because they are what they are.

Some things that absolutely should change:

Minimum property size or weighted property-1 and 2 acre UW tags are a joke. 160 acre parcels obviously hold more value to hunters than 10 acre parcels, yet they are given tags at the same rate in the SCR draw? Makes no sense.

It shouldn't take a public info request to find a map of a participating UW ranch. There should be a hyperlink on the EPLUS list that takes you right to a map of the property, similar to MT BMA properties. We are living in a time when I can do video chat on my damn phone, to not make a map available to the public is simply unacceptable.

Ranches should have a NM G&F login once initial enrollment has been accepted, and you should be able to submit documents online/view your property profile online. The use of the US Post Office for everything is a joke.

"They" need to get rid of the guys who can't comply with the required criteria to be enrolled in the program. I have asked for maps of a ranch before and seen stuff hand drawn on a piece of paper, totally worthless. The initial sign up requires more, yet they caved and have enrolled guys with a hand drawn map? Stupid.

I will put some constructive/non-hostile comments together and submit them, would love to hear what others put together.

 

[Khunter]

i just paid $65 to NM DGF for the Unit Wide ranch maps for my Gila elk unit for this year. Had to make a formal public records request. Took 3 weeks for them to arrive and the morons mailed 85 xeroxed maps in an envelope with no identifying info other than my name and address. not even a return address or info regarding what agency sent it, and no tracking number. What dipwad does that? Jennifer Montoya the paralegal assigned to reply to ranch map requests is the person. And when I asked her why the envelope had no return address she was quite proud to say “We do all requests exactly the same” As if that made any sense at all... It is a clown show.

Then it took 10 hours to decipher the hand drawn and otherwise hard to interpret maps and mark where the unitwide ranches boundaries were on my Forest Service map.

20 percent of the maps requested were flat out missing and a good number had only a small fraction of the enrolled E-Plus acreage mapped at all. So had to identify the ones they missed and request a 2nd time.

a couple 4 acres ranches in this primo gila unit were awarded bull tags! Some ranches, per the lists, were awarded tags as listed in the Core elk area list and the same ranch was awarded another tag based on identical acreage from the “Small contributing ranch” list. Double dipping! WTH.

When the guides and outfitters try their crap to intimidate me cuz I am supposedly trespassing I will laugh in their face.

Practically criminal how poorly the E-Plus “system”operates.

But I will be hunting the heck out of ranches I expect 90% of hunters will skirt around cuz they do not realize they can hunt them because I did my homework.

 

[Labman]

I received a map in 13 one year after a public information request that included BLM and state as part of the outlined area. The acreage for the ranch didn’t add up to what was depicted on the hand drawn map, so I called and brought it up to one of the G&F crew. They told me that I should call the landowner to figure it out. Really? That is my job? The guy should have received a letter telling him he has to comply with the EPLUS rules if he wanted to be in the program. They make it out to be a program that is supposed to be beneficial for elk...yet the sportsman who pay the bills are not even a part of the equation.

 

[Khunter]

I counted them up. About 270 bull or either sex tags, plus a pile of cow tags, given to landoners in my unit. That approached the number of draw tags and does not include a pile of Ranch only tags I removed from spreadsheet before running the numbers.

And they wish to hide this land in plain sight form hunter with legal authority to hunt it.

 

[hank4elk]

Reform,review,revamping of system long overdue. Required by the programs wording every 4 years...so here comes NM,late.
There was a full room @ courthouse annex in Socorro,maybe 80 people. No record being kept which I thought was odd.Maybe they will at the open public meetings later this month. Could be a Brown Act violation if you ask my lame ass... OK.

A basic grading system to see if ranch meets requirements makes too much sense & should have been used across board before...well it sort of was when I applied. I had to show how my land benefited elk/wildlife & program 9 yrs ago. Baseline science met. I used the new system & came up with a 13 using criteria bent to my favor,an 9 bending toward a hard ass grader. 6 is just meeting MQ's. Grading system is under proposals.... garden hose in a trough is not a permanent water source...OK

Maps.Now this could get tricky if they use NM science & maps. Easy if they hire an intern to compile using GPS & maybe onxmaps like the wardens do...LOL Files could be easily placed in Gores infoworld in maybe a FILE...I might even be able to do it after I learned how to use a 'puter...lol OK
When I entered program I submitted a Plate map from my county/surveyor with water features marked. A topo map with my land marked accurately & surrounding public/private shown. A sat. map I made using Flashearth with my ranch marked accurately....OK .......they lost the topo & sat. map from my file when I saw it in SF 3 years ago again.....manila file I gave them...OK

All ranches will go thru re-review & grading....they say...LOL (The RMEF guy I know who was behind me laughed & said no way they will.) OK....hire a couple interns who know 'puters. Oh and they all have to provide new accurate maps could be in there too...lol or not ...new ones for sure.....suuuuuuure...lol
Maybe this is where they will use gogglearth....but I think it is for surveys & an overview of ranches showing terrain ,cover,water sources etc....OK...lol ...what time of year? Last week when my place looks as bald as the heavily overgrazed GW that covers 300kac? When elk are there? When feed is there? Streambed flowing?... they have traditionally show up(if they ever do) to look in person, is middle of day,in June , when no elk or feed is showing...OK lol

Small Contributing Ranch , it is a lottery system that a handful of the ranches get all the tags every year while others have never received a tag...they will revise to meet science criteria & unused UW tags will be rolled back to these ranches...OK which ones? The good ole boy ones? or all the ranches in a fair lottery....OK LOL

RO,now this is where my place is entered. Outside of core ranches. It says in program deeded lands only.
OK,what about all the leased lands they have,most of which is locked to public one way or another now? I know many that hunt these leased lands now,which is POACHING. Illegal take of game. Hell they sell the leases with the ranches most times like it is private property now,but they never own the deed or title to it.

Now here is where it got weird. They talked of going OTC with all the tags,unliminted number. They did this with all the deer tags 15yrs ago & 2500 people showed up & wiped out the deer herd in unit 12....or going with what they have now,limited number of tags for unit...OK lol
They talked of getting rid of the OCT-DEC hunt dates & going all during same time as draw hunts,to ease the load on enforcement, they say.So they will have all the draw folks & all the RO folks all the same time,& they cannot keep up with just draw folks as it is, or get to all the ranches as it is...but this will help....instead of spreading the season out to benefit elk pressure & hunters/ranchers.....OK LOL(former LEO)
3 yrs ago they took half the LO tags from some ranches & opened the draw to twice the tags before.Same amount of accessable public lands to hunt. No criteria/baseline science or reason given.... & they added ranches in program,some 20ac places. I asked many times where was the science/reason? It just made me known to G&F....
The bombshell towards the end was they are going to cut unit 12 in half & half will go to E-PLUS UW & half stay Outside of COER(Core Occupied Elk Range)....the smaller ranches like me will be placed in the Small Contributing Ranch program....draw between ranches.....my options are limited the elk biologist told me,SMC or nada....OK
Guy asked the next day @ Ruidoso meeting if he could opt out & stay in outside COER & do RO still,he was told yes....OK LOL I know this because a guy with a cell put meetings online. Nada Grande Outdoors on FB.

An outfitter got up & mentioned that they had just told ranchers that tags were uncertain now & value just fell & word is out that you will not be able to or will be limited/uncertain of ranches. Said your talking hundreds of thousands of $'s of income for these ranchers gone.
This unit was devoid of elk in 1920. Now there are as many elk at times as the rest of the Greater Gila Herd,thanks in part to the ranchers who have worked in good faith with NMG&F.Now we are cut out,not a recognized herd.....uncertainty. This also effects land values now here.

All ranches must be connected,not a parcel here & there. Contiguous. OK, how about co-ops? I was told I could still join a co-op get tags.
How does that work if my ranch is not connected directly to the other ranches?
How does all ranches must be contiguous work when most are not connected as it is?
How does all ranches will be in one unit work when some ranches cover several units & they will remain the same while others are cut up or exempt from program?
An outfitter told me I could join one of his co-ops,just buy my tags if I wanted & he would use them somewhere....OK,same old shit with poaching. lol A co-op I put together 5 yrs ago & was kicked out of...because my tags were not as valuable to them now ....they were getting $3-5000 that year for a bull tag.

I do not know what I will do. I gave all my tags away this year,free to folks I know. I do not even have one now for myself as I did not draw any tags this year. LOL ...I really don't care anymore. My place is for wildlife.My well will run year round as always.
I think E-Plus system works. Just not right.
I think ALL ranches should be Ranch Only,deeded lands only. Unless ranchers open the leased lands to public too.
I think spreading hunts out works.
I think everyone on same page works.
I know the good ole boy system sucks.
I know the residents want all the tags & access to all the ranches too.
I know my ranch will never be open to today's General population.
I know I always know who is on my land & why now.

Like I said,looks like a bunch of ideas thrown on a board. You can comment on those ideas. Any ideas.
Then G&F will decide which proposals to hand the Commission & they will vote,& we have no idea what final proposal is before.....OK LOL

 

[TLowell02]

Excerpts from hank4elk:
No record being kept which I thought was odd.

I agree no record keeping is odd. Otherwise, what is the point of the meeting? To get a "sense" of that what the public wants? Seems from the outside NMDGF is one terribly organized agency with poor leadership.

Maps.Now this could get tricky if they use NM science & maps. Easy if they hire an intern to compile using GPS & maybe onxmaps like the wardens do.

G&F already has an access coordinator. This should fall under that position. After a decade of E-Plus UW tags and no maps are made available to the public without paying a tidy sum for the documents indicates the shady nature of the program. Last year I used a county tax assessor website to locate UW ranches. I literally spent days doing the detective work. While I felt like it gave an advantage while out hunting, in reality, that is not the intent of the program. It should be available for all.

They talked of going OTC with all the tags,unlimited number.

I feel like OTC archery tags for outside COER units would be a viable option. Already talking about generally low density populations which I presume would equal low hunter success so it would not affect the overall population.

I think ALL ranches should be Ranch Only,deeded lands only. Unless ranchers open the leased lands to public too.

You presented an idea that I would support. Reward the landowners (it will be few) who allow access to landlocked public lands. It really irks me how much state land, especially in the northeastern NM, is great habitat for one game species or another yet there is no public access.

 

[Jwill]

That system is such a mess. Thanks for working on it and good luck!

 

[Labman]

OTC tags outside the COER isn’t the best of ideas. The COER is a bit of a misnomer, there are areas outside the COER that have unbelievable elk populations. I know when those tags are in someone’s hand that they don’t just hunt the private. They hunt the public too, which is total BS. The big ranches typically don’t sell all their allotted tags, so for them I am sure it would be meaningless. I think that the guys that get a few tags that will be tempted to shoot the hell out of them. Maybe I am wrong. Wish I was, but I know there are plenty of RO tags that get filled on public and it pisses me off.

 

[hank4elk]

Elk densities were average 10 yrs ago,there are 3 times as many now as when I moved here. This was increased with the huge fires south & west several years ago. Cool. Doubling the draw tags as there more elk was a good idea,IMHO.OK
So I guess the numbers warrant the upgrade to full E-PLUS.

Oh,they mentioned unit 12 going to a point restriction,so E-PLUS 6. I would imagine it would be 6 points or better system.OK
Working with the ranchers has worked then.Quality. More elk for everyone to hunt.OK

All the bow tags remain in 2-Sept. seasons. RO outside COER MB & A tags are ANY weapon so bow hunters can hunt all season if they wish. OK

This OTC unlimited idea was way off base & contrary to making it a limited Quality hunt. Not OK to wipe out the elk again,IMHO. I might think different if the OTC tags were limited. But I think it is opening an abuse wormhole.

Rolling the unconverted tags into the SMC would be good.Guess it would be based on previous years numbers. OK


Since they took all cow tags away from NR in the draw(TERRIBLE IDEA-whole R-NR % is still off,forget Outfitter welfare)the value of the cow tags has grown. From me not being able to GIVE one away for years to I have folks calling all the time for cow tags now. I hear of $800 cow tags now.
This is where rolling unconverted tags to others could open more opportunities.

I'd say 90% of the income in Catron county comes from the use of public lands in area & hunting on the ranches in general one way or another. I'd hate to see the Greater Gila area drop in quality & numbers like some of these ideas have done to several other NM units I can think of.
Taking away the elk program & some $ for ranchers would devolve quickly here....I will not mention the comments some ranchers make about elk,deer& antelope.
They do not talk for me or most stewards of the land I know.

This is where we work together folks. Ideas?

 

[Labman]

Hank, If you know anyone who wants to give me that price, or anywhere close for my Unit 13 cow tag shoot me a PM! Haven’t had one call on it. Thanks!

 

[hank4elk]

OK, so after being debbie downer after last years last minute changes and appealing my ranch score etc...,I got my E-plus agreement for 2020 with new ranch score,Elk Contributing rating,etc.
Well they are finally cleaning up the E-plus system is what I say. About time.

Item,in my unit there are no 1-60 ac properties listed any more.Good. Ranches HAD to meet criteria and score,so many even larger places with no benefit are out. Good.
They are re-verifying deeds.Good. They sent map of my place that jibes for verification. They have property maps that will be online.
Unit Wide will be Unit Wide and ranches in UW program WILL be open to public hunters and the maps posted. An EZ fix and long over due.
They are a month early with paperwork and I got call from head of E-plus & 2 Biologists returned calls....WOW.

Finally initiating Habitat Incentive Program,YEAH!
Water is King! Feed & cover second. Surrounding lands taken into equation. Elk use must be documented. Real rangeland improvement and grazing management & ranching practices considered. Cattle exclusion included...cool. I'm not rich enough for tax write off business(Cattle) anymore anyway.
No garuntees as always,but if you meet criterias you MAY get considerations and the more you meet the more considerations for getting a tag. They were very positive of my verbal plans, with positive suggestions.

So, I will remain Ranch Only(due to small acerage) and am Small Contributing Ranch and maybe get a tag in lottery. The Habitat Incentive Program could give me more points and that could help me get a tag.
I do not care about the $4500 I spent on the new solar water pump system for stock well that I will never recover. I do not care if a get a handfull of bull tags. 1 cow tag or even possibly none.
I do care the work I have put into my little wildlife refuge gets consideration.
I do care about the science.
The wildlife.

 

[WapitiBob]

There you go, well done.