New points theory

[Huntnut60]

And here is my theory: You wouldn't no ethical if it slapped you across the face.

Not us noobs fault you sat around for a quarter century building points when you could have had a tag a half a dozen times.

I have tried to not get involved in this thread because I am one of those evil old people (61 yrs old) who have a LOT of points in 4-5 western states. I did what a lot of people do, apply for any tag you thought you might want some day. Life has gotten in the way of hunting every year but in the last 25 yrs I have been to Ak x2, Co x3, NM x4 and Wy x2 and Quebec x1. So I have not sat around. If you apply for multiple species in numerous states, you will never use all your points. You are correct, I chose to accumulate points to give myself a chance to hunt the “best” units if I ever draw. My points should never interfere with yours, or people who think like you, since you will spend them when you get a few.

 

[Buffs35]

Lot of people on here with misplaced anger. You shouldn't be mad at folks that have accumulated points, you should be mad at your parents for not procreating earlier.

 

[Gr8bawana]

Ummm Nevada draw odds maybe?

Or perhaps they take personality into account.

 

[Shangobango]

Lot of people on here with misplaced anger. You shouldn't be mad at folks that have accumulated points, you should be mad at your parents for not procreating earlier.

Lol. I am not sure where how you figure I am mad...

Seems like a lot of the anger lies with folks who have been sitting on points for decades who invested a lot of time and money trying to draw a premium tag only to have the goalposts moved, and I get that.

It is pretty obvious that many of these current systems aren't sustainable. Who is the causing the creep? Is it the guy who is banking a handful of points and going hunting or is it the one that is holding 20?

I know what my opinion is.

 

[Shangobango]

I have tried to not get involved in this thread because I am one of those evil old people (61 yrs old) who have a LOT of points in 4-5 western states. I did what a lot of people do, apply for any tag you thought you might want some day. Life has gotten in the way of hunting every year but in the last 25 yrs I have been to Ak x2, Co x3, NM x4 and Wy x2 and Quebec x1. So I have not sat around. If you apply for multiple species in numerous states, you will never use all your points. You are correct, I chose to accumulate points to give myself a chance to hunt the “best” units if I ever draw. My points should never interfere with yours, or people who think like you, since you will spend them when you get a few.

Valid point.

They guy I was replying to had his panties in a bunch because some on here are discussing ways to mend a broken system.

Things change all the time and it isn't always fair. From what I see, doing nothing to explore ways to make a change in some of these systems isn't really going to benefit anyone.

 

[Huntnut60]

Valid point.

They guy I was replying to had his panties in a bunch because some on here are discussing ways to mend a broken system.

Things change all the time and it isn't always fair. From what I see, doing nothing to explore ways to make a change in some of these systems isn't really going to benefit anyone.

I am not at all opposed to change and I definitely see the view from hunters just getting into the game. It’s a tough situation and I am not sure what the answer is. There may not be one that can make everyone satisfied. I did notice some suggestions in earlier posts that would use points and possibly clear some points. The problem is the higher point holders, myself included, who expect some preference to get the better tags that we have waited to have the chance for and spent a lot of money for that chance.

Valid point.

They guy I was replying to had his panties in a bunch because some on here are discussing ways to mend a broken system.

Things change all the time and it isn't always fair. From what I see, doing nothing to explore ways to make a change in some of these systems isn't really going to benefit anyone.

 

[Buffs35]

Lol. I am not sure where how you figure I am mad...

Seems like a lot of the anger lies with folks who have been sitting on points for decades who invested a lot of time and money trying to draw a premium tag only to have the goalposts moved, and I get that.

It is pretty obvious that many of these current systems aren't sustainable. Who is the causing the creep? Is it the guy who is banking a handful of points and going hunting or is it the one that is holding 20?

I know what my opinion is.

It wasn't aimed at you, just into the cosmos. Posters that think the point systems will simply disappear are just being obtuse, and those that disparage point holders have misguided anger. Yes, many have invested time and money into the current system - through no fault of their own, "them were the rules". More importantly, the states make a chit ton of money off the sale of preference and bonus points. Point fees, transaction fees, buying a qualifying license when they know most won't set foot in the state, habitat stamps, etc. It is far more likely that Wyoming residents go to a point system than one of the other western states abandon their cash cow.

 

[Huntnut60]

I am not at all opposed to change and I definitely see the view from hunters just getting into the game. It’s a tough situation and I am not sure what the answer is. There may not be one that can make everyone satisfied. I did notice some suggestions in earlier posts that would use points and possibly clear some points. The problem is the higher point holders, myself included, who expect some preference to get the better tags that we have waited to have the chance for and spent a lot of money for that chance.

It wasn't aimed at you, just into the cosmos. Posters that think the point systems will simply disappear are just being obtuse, and those that disparage point holders have misguided anger. Yes, many have invested time and money into the current system - through no fault of their own, "them were the rules". More importantly, the states make a chit ton of money off the sale of preference and bonus points. Point fees, transaction fees, buying a qualifying license when they know most won't set foot in the state, habitat stamps, etc. It is far more likely that Wyoming residents go to a point system than one of the other western states abandon their cash cow.

The high point holders were just following the rules at the time. I have 25+ pts for deer/elk/antelope in Az, Ut, and Nev. Have never drawn a tag in any of these states. I would gladly trade ALL my deer pts for 1 premium tag. The same for elk and antelope. Somebody figure that out and a lot of points disappear.

 

[Elkmagnet]

I am not at all opposed to change and I definitely see the view from hunters just getting into the game. It’s a tough situation and I am not sure what the answer is. There may not be one that can make everyone satisfied. I did notice some suggestions in earlier posts that would use points and possibly clear some points. The problem is the higher point holders, myself included, who expect some preference to get the better tags that we have waited to have the chance for and spent a lot of money for that chance.

Reasonable and valid.

 

[Elkmagnet]

The high point holders were just following the rules at the time. I have 25+ pts for deer/elk/antelope in Az, Ut, and Nev. Have never drawn a tag in any of these states. I would gladly trade ALL my deer pts for 1 premium tag. The same for elk and antelope. Somebody figure that out and a lot of points disappear.

When I get into a system I do so understanding that the rules can and do change regularly.
Like wyoming lookin at 90/10. Or the cost to apply/tags in many states going up regularly.
I'm not saying I think Points will dissappear or that you guys aren't justified in your opinion. I just don't personally think that argument means squat to the states. The states are in it for revenue and Points are revenue. I believe that stay for better or worse.

 

[ImBillT]

I have only been applying the last 2 or 3 years in other states, so I fit your strawman. If I didn't like their systems, I wouldn't apply. I am all for restructuring point systems, heck I can't even get a tag to hunt my own property in eastern Colorado every year, but denigrating current point holders isn't goin to build a consensus.

I have problems with a lot of state draw systems but still participate because that’s the only way I’m going to go hunting. You can advocate for change but still play by the rules. Disliking the rules does not mean that you can’t play the game.

Pointing out the flaws of point systems, or the lines of thinking that put them in place, isn’t denigrating current point holders. I’m a point holder in six states(albeit not very many points). There are people in this very thread, that seem to think that because they have applied for 26+ years for a species in a state that they are entitled to hunt that species in that state. When NM has 38 years worth of elk applicants, and the units they are known for have 100-250 years worth of applicants, there is NOT ONE POINT HOLDER who has EARNED a top tier tag, OR STOOD IN LINE LONG ENOUGH. Pointing out that fact should not be considered “denigrating”. The FACT is that there aren’t enough tags to go around, especially for the top tier hunts. There isn’t a point system in the country that has finished maxing out “point creep”, and guys burning 26 points to go on them have not waited their fair share. Not one point system ever started where all applicants were 12 years old. The reason guys today can be in the max pool at 26 points in a system that is 26-35 years old is because A LOT of the applicants IN THE FIRST YEAR OF THE SYSTEM were ALREADY OLD. They died. Without change(which is inevitable) there will come a day when all max point holders entered a system at the age of 12(or whatever depending on the state), none are young, and they haven’t gone hunting in that state for that species. Is that the system that we want?

There are at least two states I would not even apply in right now if it wasn’t for points because I cannot currently hunt them. I apply in them however because I want to hunt them someday, and if I do not get in line now, I will never be able to hunt them. Is it fair that I can get in line today to hunt in a state that I do not intend to hunt any time soon? Perhaps I will hunt there in 2030, or 2040, or 2050. When I decide to go, why should I be at the front of the line ahead of someone who is going into the draw for the very first time in their life? Was it their choice to turn 12 in 2040? Were they less dedicated? Do they own public land less than I do? Does the state manage wildlife in my trust or in “public trust”? Is a new hunter not a part of the public? Is the demand that we see in all of the states real? Point systems create false demand. If all states were random, I would apply for 1/3 of what I appear to want to go hunt. Will I be upset if they turn the system on its head and make my points meaningless? I’ll be disappointed for sure. If they just make the scheme worse, I’ll be upset for sure. If they make it random, or closer to random, I’ll be glad they did it, but the longer it takes, the sadder I’ll be that I’m on the wrong end of the stick both coming and going.

If it’s “denigrating” for me to say that I won’t feel sorry for a person if changes to a point system prevent them from drawing a tag that never had enough tags to meet demand in the first place, then I guess I’m denigrating them. The fact is, anyone applying anywhere needs to come to the realization that no point system, matter how perfect or elaborate can get someone a tag when demand exceeds supply.

 

[Zim]

And here is my theory: You wouldn't know ethical if it slapped you across the face.

Not us noobs fault you sat around for a quarter century building points when you could have had a tag a half a dozen times.

Junior, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you weren’t around in 2012 when I stopped AZ HB2072, which saved the 500 top public trophy tags in the best trophy state from the auction block. That was ten years ago. 500 x 10 = 5,000 hunters that are now out of your way. And those 500 primo tags are there today for you to apply for, for years to come.

Where were you in 2012? I don’t recall you offering to help me by emailing legislators. I don’t recall you doing anything. Don’t you think that would have been the “ethical” thing to do?

You need to go back and read every post. I would not have 26 points in any state today had I not had those states cheapen my points by siphoning off NR tags for outfitter welfare and auction tags, among other things. We have been screwed so many times already.

You are doing a fine job proving your noob status all by yourself.

 

[Zim]

And here is my theory: You wouldn't know ethical if it slapped you across the face.

Not us noobs fault you sat around for a quarter century building points when you could have had a tag a half a dozen times.

Noob, Please make a list of all the corrupt wildlife legislative bills you have successfully stopped in the last ten years. Include the year & bill#.

Here I’ll even help you get started…………
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

 

[Zim]

Strange that you asked for how I was specifically involved. One I was helping fight that was HT involved search- idaho wild sheep foundation auction tags on here.
Between preference points, auction tags, increase landowner or outfitter tags. The never ended onslaught against our commie lands, changes to the trespassing law.
It seem to pop up on a yearly basis and we usually get it killed at introduction or killed in committee. I'm no Buzz or Ben long but I assure you I am involved.

For a good tracker of Idahos current sportsman related bills search Idaho wildlife federation and look under the legislative tab.

Ummm, Just looked all these up H0456, H0468, H0507, etc. None are major and none have anything to do with hunting tags. Mechanical broadheads, damages, etc. Can’t turn up anything on the sheep auction tags but I’m still looking.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

The high point holders were just following the rules at the time. I have 25+ pts for deer/elk/antelope in Az, Ut, and Nev. Have never drawn a tag in any of these states. I would gladly trade ALL my deer pts for 1 premium tag. The same for elk and antelope. Somebody figure that out and a lot of points disappear.

Do you have 25 deer, elk and antelope points in UT?

 

[Zim]

Or perhaps they take personality into account.

That why I drew NV archery bull elk unit 111-114 in 2007? Scored a 350” and saw two much bigger. Also helped an Idaho hunter take a 399” there last fall.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Ummm, Just looked all these up H0456, H0468, H0507, etc. None are major and none have anything to do with hunting tags. Mechanical broadheads, damages, etc. Can’t turn up anything on the sheep auction tags but I’m still looking.

My mentions were of previous bills.
IDWF is posting current active bills.
A couple of big one to me currently going

S1251-Attempts to establish authority on public lands by establishing state or public land permittees/leases as real property holders giving them veto power over any land exchanges directed by the Land Board, likely unconstitutiona

S1252-Companion bill to SB 1251, attempting to establish grazing rights as real compensable property, despite the Taylor Grazing Act language and federal court cases stating they are not. Combined with SB 1251, would give certain interests more power over public land exchanges.

 

[Trap]

Sounds like this is very similar to resident Utah draw. One of the issues If you don’t make it straight across the board for residents and NR is that people will build points then either move there or move out of the state to capitalize on there points they have banked up. People do that now in Utah apply as a nr then move there and have stacked points and draw a sheep tag one year then a moose then etc.

That’s some insane dedication I doubt a high percentage of people would move to up there odds just to draw a tag? I understand moving to a state permanently for good hunting but not as part of some draw strategy. I don’t know sounds crazy but im sure a small number of people do it. I vote for making everyone go all in on 1 species and 1 first choice. I think you could leave existing points alone in respective categories. Way too many hunters putting in for everything since it’s a nominal additional fee once you have bought the license. Make people put in for what they really want. That would make a big difference in odds day one. You draw a tag of any kind points are gone. That seems simple and you can’t just get rid of points high point holders would stage a revolution

 

[Shangobango]

Junior, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess you weren’t around in 2012 when I stopped AZ HB2072, which saved the 500 top public trophy tags in the best trophy state from the auction block. That was ten years ago. 500 x 10 = 5,000 hunters that are now out of your way. And those 500 primo tags are there today for you to apply for, for years to come.

Where were you in 2012? I don’t recall you offering to help me by emailing legislators. I don’t recall you doing anything. Don’t you think that would have been the “ethical” thing to do?

You need to go back and read every post. I would not have 26 points in any state today had I not had those states cheapen my points by siphoning off NR tags for outfitter welfare and auction tags, among other things. We have been screwed so many times already.

You are doing a fine job proving your noob status all by yourself.

I’d rather be a noob than a goob…

 

[Zim]

I’d rather be a noob than a goob…

Only noobs & goobs avoid answering questions.

Answer! You shouldn’t post here if you can’t participate in constructive dialog. You run away like a little schoolgirl.

I saved your freakin tags. The least you could do is answer my questions. God forbid thanking me!