MT CWD positive?

[brocksw]

I don't want to downplay your wife/gf feeling unsafe that is BS that someone would make her or anyone feel that way over this topic. But, maybe the last part of your first sentence answers why the 2nd sentence happens?

You came and attacked me right away when I was just asking questions. Not spreading any information questions and observations is all.

Attacked you? I think you're being oversensitive.

 

[WIbiggame]

Attacked you? I think you're being oversensitive.

You are right I am just finished my morning coffee i am better now. I appreciate your passion but maybe tone it down a pinch and you might be received a little better. You seem to have your heart in the right place and very knowledgeable. Don't let you emotions detract from your message is all I was saying.

 

[longbow51]

I am not going to derail this thread like the ND baiting one did by a singular argument between you and another member I forget the kids name you kept calling out.

However, I don't think I've ever had an attitude. I simply put put information I've seen first hand here in WI and show what it leads too. This example in MT of giving out tags for positive deer is one of them.

When discussing the ND thread @Hunting Wife was very polite and I learned alot from her some tact goes along away.

Like I said I am pretty informed about the disease. I wil admit less so the last 2-3years bc as I see it, it has absolutely no bearing on herd health as a whole or quality of meat. That is my personal observation and opinion but is backed up with facts and first hand outcomes.

Like I said you guys do you and I hope you solve this disease and can remove it from your landscape.


View attachment 305813View attachment 305814

"No evidence" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The incubation period of infectious prion disease is very long, and usually manifests itself in the 60s and 70s. Since the symptoms are similar to dementia and prion disease is rare in US cattle, it's not the first thing that leaps to mind in a differential diagnosis. Hardly matters, since there is currently no treatment, other than symptomatic.

And for the cannibals among you, best not to eat the brains

Prion Disease: Symptoms, Causes, Treatment, & Prevention

Prion diseases are a rare group of neurodegenerative disorders. Learn more about the symptoms, causes, treatment options, and tips for prevention.

www.healthline.com

 

[brocksw]

"No evidence" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The incubation period of infectious prion disease is very long, and usually manifests itself in the 60s and 70s. Since the symptoms are similar to dementia and prion disease is rare in US cattle, it's not the first thing that leaps to mind in a differential diagnosis. Hardly matters, since there is currently no treatment, other than symptomatic.

And for the cannibals among you, best not to eat the brains

Prion Disease: Symptoms, Causes, Treatment, & Prevention

Prion diseases are a rare group of neurodegenerative disorders. Learn more about the symptoms, causes, treatment options, and tips for prevention.

www.healthline.com

BSE had an incubation period of a 10+ years in humans.

 

[brocksw]

View attachment 305813

This is some very interesting work by Dr. Seabury. Essentially the same method used in the ag industry for a host of diseases(including scapie another TSE) and other health issues. Unfortunately, in a recent public talk for TPW he comes out and states multiple times, his breeding program will not work for wild deer herds. You need complete control over breeding for his program to work.

As far as I know, he's only shown he can do it in 1 captive herd, but there are many deer farmers implementing his program, so time will tell.

So, there is probably some truth to what he's saying in terms of farmed herds, but he's still failing to address the impacts those CWD+ herds can have spreading to wild herds(which like he states, he can't do anything about) and around the globe.

 

[brocksw]

"No evidence" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. The incubation period of infectious prion disease is very long, and usually manifests itself in the 60s and 70s. Since the symptoms are similar to dementia and prion disease is rare in US cattle, it's not the first thing that leaps to mind in a differential diagnosis. Hardly matters, since there is currently no treatment, other than symptomatic.

And for the cannibals among you, best not to eat the brains

Prion Disease: Symptoms, Causes, Treatment, & Prevention

Prion diseases are a rare group of neurodegenerative disorders. Learn more about the symptoms, causes, treatment options, and tips for prevention.

www.healthline.com

Even if it does jump to humans, based on what we've seen I think it's probably safe to say it's not likely to become this broad reaching pandemic level disease in humans.

But that is altogether irrelavent and I have 2 main concerns with it jumping species.

1. 4.5 million cattle were destroyed over a couple hundred cases of vCJD (human version of mad cow). How is the American public going to react if someone's kid get's CWD? You think it'll just get brushed off as no big deal? Unlikely. Hunters represent what, 5% of the population? You think hunter concerns are going to carry any weight in the decision making? Or is it more likely that a majority of American's will support a deer slaughter of monumental and historic scale across the whole damn continent to prevent this disease from getting worse?

I don't want to find out.


2. If it does jump to cattle. Now the entire ag industry is involved. What is their reaction going to be when it comes to picking between the public's sick deer herd or their cattle operation?

I don't want to find out.

I believe UMN has done some strain work and they firmly believe that these prions are perfectly capable of jumping species. It has the characteristics to do so. Given my opinions above, why play that game?

 

[brocksw]

I don't see a decline here 2 of the highest CWD prevalant continues in the state. I don't know for fact but would venture to guess probably could say in the country. View attachment 305820

Wisconsin has great fecundity. So in Wisconsin, Deer can outbreed it, for now. But again, population affects don't necessarily mean you see this dramatic and sharp declines in population. There are examples of declines in other states/provinces. But when collared deer in Wisconsin show that CWD+ deer don't live as long, are more susceptible to death at an earlier age from a variety of mortality factors, that is not nothing.

Correction post:

MT CWD positive?

I guess it would really show who is actually hunting for meat. Not that that changes the grand scheme of things. I suspect nonresidents would still come and shoot and be happy but maybe I’m wrong.

www.hunttalk.com

 

[longbow51]

Even if it does jump to humans, based on what we've seen I think it's probably safe to say it's not likely to become this broad reaching pandemic level disease in humans.

But that is altogether irrelavent and I have 2 main concerns with it jumping species.

1. 4.5 million cattle were destroyed over a couple hundred cases of vCJD (human version of mad cow). How is the American public going to react if someone's kid get's CWD? You think it'll just get brushed off as no big deal? Unlikely. Hunters represent what, 5% of the population? You think hunter concerns are going to carry any weight in the decision making? Or is it more likely that a majority of American's will support a deer slaughter of monumental and historic scale across the whole damn continent to prevent this disease from getting worse?

I don't want to find out.


2. If it does jump to cattle. Now we'll the entire ag industry involved. What is their reaction going to be when it comes to picking between the public's sick deer herd or their cattle operation?

I don't want to find out.

I believe UMN has done some strain work and they firmly believe that these prions are perfectly capable of jumping species. It has the characteristics to do so. Given my opinions above, why play that game?

BSE had an incubation period of a 10+ years in humans.

10+ with a very long tail, same as kuru. I'm very cautious about assumptions, and while Wisconsin may not be seeing symptomatic people yet, we have no idea what the incubation period might be. Best to err on the side of caution. I sure wouldn't feed my granddaughter CWD meat.

Or maybe in Wisconsin you wouldn't notice the difference...JUST KIDDING. Getting a little heavy this early in the am.

 

[brocksw]

10+ with a very long tail, same as kuru. I'm very cautious about assumptions, and while Wisconsin may not be seeing symptomatic people yet, we have no idea what the incubation period might be. Best to err on the side of caution. I sure wouldn't feed my granddaughter CWD meat.

I won't feed my kids CWD positive meat. No way.

Getting a little heavy this early in the am.

That's my fault, not @WIbiggame . I was too quick to lump him in with the folks I deal with. I shouldn't have done that. It's almost become reflexive for me on this issue and that's my problem, not his.

 

[Hunting Wife]

CWD in the Dakotas and Montana can probably be traced genetically back to WI. During the bad drough year 5-6yrs ago WI was sending massive amounts of hay to those areas and guess what it all came from CWD positive areas.

No genetics with prions, as @brocksw described. They are not an organism, but a misfolded form of a normal protein produced by cervids. So it is not possible to do a genetic trace-back, like with viruses or bacteria. There are, however, a variety of strains, which may shed a little bit of light on origins, but not nearly to the degree a genetic lineage could. I would say that CWD in Montana showed up more or less as predicted, adjacent to known hotspots in neighboring states/provinces (the emergence in Libby did not follow this pattern).

@brocksw & @Hunting Wife hasn't there been studies that show that some ungulates no matter how much exposure are immune to CWD? Around us it seems to be self limiting and isn't killing off deer herds.

Not to my knowledge. If so, it has been a very rare case. I do know that there have been different strains of CWD prions identified as well, with potentially differential abilities to infect. I haven’t read up on that in a while so don’t know the current state of knowledge.

Some animals with a certain genotype do show a delayed disease progression. However, that genotype is found at exceedingly low levels in wild populations, and much more commonly in farmed populations. This implies that that genotype confers some selective disadvantage in the wild. So would that genotype ever proliferate in wild populations affected with CWD if it is disadvantageous to other pressures? And if it did proliferate, would that be a good thing for the wild population if it confers lower fitness in other ways? I don’t know the answer to that one.

Are there any papers available that make an attempt to quantify environmental prion prevalence and environmental infection rates? It seems to me that environmental prevalence would have to be very high to maintain infection in a herd if you were otherwise able to remove other sources of infection.

I am not aware of anything specific to quantifying environmental loads. I have seen work that suggests environmental infectivity may depend on soil type…that some soils may bind prions or alternatively enhance their uptake. If this is true, quantification may not be very straightforward. It’s been quite some time since I saw those papers. I’m sure I’ve posted them back in the Stone Age but I’ll see if I can track those down again.

 

[Oak]

Some animals with a certain genotype do show a delayed disease progression. However, that genotype is found at exceedingly low levels in wild populations, and much more commonly in farmed populations. This implies that that genotype confers some selective disadvantage in the wild. So would that genotype ever proliferate in wild populations affected with CWD if it is disadvantageous to other pressures? And if it did proliferate, would that be a good thing for the wild population if it confers lower fitness in other ways? I don’t know the answer to that one.

Is it possible that the delayed progression genotype is only more prevalent in captive herds vs. wild herds because captive populations are smaller and likely have higher exposure rates than wild herds? Therefore, perhaps there is a selective advantage that just hasn't been observed in wild populations due to low exposure rates and large population size. I don't know...just thinking out loud.

 

[antlerradar]

Some animals with a certain genotype do show a delayed disease progression. However, that genotype is found at exceedingly low levels in wild populations, and much more commonly in farmed populations. This implies that that genotype confers some selective disadvantage in the wild. So would that genotype ever proliferate in wild populations affected with CWD if it is disadvantageous to other pressures? And if it did proliferate, would that be a good thing for the wild population if it confers lower fitness in other ways? I don’t know the answer to that one.

Just speculation, but my first thought was is that resistant genotype also accoiated with large antlers. In captive herds, deer that produce large antlers are used as herd sires. In the wild, large antlers are a good way to die young. In general antler size can be a reflection on the health of the animal.

 

[antlerradar]

2. If it does jump to cattle. Now the entire ag industry is involved. What is their reaction going to be when it comes to picking between the public's sick deer herd or their cattle operation?

I don't want to find out.

What about domstic sheep. If CWD did originate with domstic sheep. I would think it would be logcal that CWD would jump back to sheep much more easily than to cattle. I have not heard of this happening, maybe it does, but ag publications are full of stories every time a Bison or elk with Brucellosis gets close to a cow. Maybe there are reasons why CWD does not jump back, but that is for someone much smarter than me to answer.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Is it possible that the delayed progression genotype is only more prevalent in captive herds vs. wild herds because captive populations are smaller and likely have higher exposure rates than wild herds? Therefore, perhaps there is a selective advantage that just hasn't been observed in wild populations due to low exposure rates and large population size. I don't know...just thinking out loud.

Also thinking out loud…I would think the selective pressure due to selective breeding would more than swamp out any potential selection pressure from CWD. CWD itself is probably not imposing any selective pressure at all in your run of the mill captive facility. They would be depopulated once it was detected, thus no continued multi-generational selection pressure from the disease?

@antlerradar could be on to something. Perhaps it’s linked to some trait desireable to breeders. I don’t believe anyone knows what specifically that gene codes for.

 

[brocksw]

What about domstic sheep. If CWD did originate with domstic sheep. I would think it would be logcal that CWD would jump back to sheep much more easily than to cattle. I have not heard of this happening, maybe it does, but ag publications are full of stories every time a Bison or elk with Brucellosis gets close to a cow. Maybe there are reasons why CWD does not jump back, but that is for someone much smarter than me to answer.

Controlled breeding programs. They bred for scrapie resistance and reduced it by like 99%. Essentially the same program Dr. Seabury developed for farmed raised deer.

 

[Deleted member 16864]

Ousted Green Beret Was Sick

Family Says His Illness, Similar To Mad Cow, Was Misdiagnosed

www.cbsnews.com

I remember this case from 20 years ago. I definitely won’t be feeding my family CWD infected deer.

 

[Dakotakid]

Sorry Montana Cwd map link didn’t work but it is interesting.

CWD Management | Montana FWP

CWD Management

fwp.mt.gov

 

[Hunting Wife]

Both of our bucks tested positive this year. We won’t eat positives. To me, three prion diseases that have been transmitted to people via consuming prions is plenty of evidence that I don’t want to assume the risk.

But that said, I also have no interest in shooting deer if I can’t eat them. Not sure what that means for me personally going forward. Throwing away a deer is a really shitty feeling I don't particularly want to experience again.

 

[antlerradar]

But that said, I also have no interest in shooting deer if I can’t eat them. Not sure what that means for me personally going forward. Throwing away a deer is a really shitty feeling I don't particularly want to experience again.

Can not blame you one bit. A dilemma for sure and not just for the hunters but also managers. Do hunters like you start to target one and half year old forkies because the chances of a CWD positive are lower? Same with B tags, fill two B tags with fawns instead of shooting one older doe might provide the same amount of meat with out the risk of a CWD positive. Will NR still come and shoot a small buck if you don't learn you have a CWD positive until after you are half way across the country? Not going to be easy.

 

[Treeshark]

Will NR still come and shoot a small buck if you don't learn you have a CWD positive until after you are half way across the country?

Not to cross-pollinate threads, but this is the reason I think eventual point-of-kill testing capabilities could be a game-changer.