More Eve of Destruction news

[SAJ-99]

I’m in my early 40s. I’ve always assumed that I would get nothing from Social Security. It’s just another tax, as far as I’m concerned. Our political leaders should have never been able to raid those funds.

This is a common misperception. There was never a "raiding" of those funds. I'm not 100% sure why this myth persists. Also, this view of SS as a bucket of funds with a hole in the bottom is a little off. It can never "run out". Right now there is an excess of past collections, ie. reserves, of about $2.7T that are by law invested in Treasury bonds. Once the excess is gone, the rules say payouts have to drop to match collections. It is impossible for SS to "go away" without an act of Congress to do that. The payouts simply match the inflow from taxes.

 

[Southern Elk]

Face down with my tool bags on..
Really prefer to go face down in the river, flyrod in hand.

A friend’s dad died while climbing a tree after hiking in 2 miles with the tree stand on his back. Not a bad way to go if you ask me.

 

[406dn]

@BuzzH, this is something we mostly agree on, so not picking to pick. But life expectancy for a male in the US that has reached age 65 is 83 or so. When SS was started, it was probably 10+ years less than that.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to consider moving the SS age back a bit, nor do I think it’s appropriate to position SS as the sole means of retirement for most people. In my opinion, that is not what it is intended for- it is an insurance against poverty amongst the elderly. Exactly what that means is subject to interpretation, I do acknowledge that.

Here is some data from a Social Security web site. The big gains in life expectancy have come from reducing infant mortality. Once you made it to adulthood, the changes over the years have been pretty modest.

Social Security History

I agree that SS is a backstop against poverty in old age. It was never intended to be the sole source of income in retirement. Sadly, it is the sole source or nearly so, for quite a few seniors.

 

[geewhiz]

View attachment 320008

Go be a liberal somewhere else.

 

[Treeshark]

The big gains in life expectancy have come from reducing infant mortality. Once you made it to adulthood, the changes over the years have been pretty modest.

I appreciate you posting that data. So if I’m interpreting correctly, life expectancy as it directly relates to SS benefits has increased about 5 years since SS inception. My guess of 10+ years overshot the mark, but I suppose the point is the same.

 

[mxracer317]

It’s clear here that many do not understand how entitlement programs actually work.

For those of you that want MORE government involvement, you’re only pushing harder towards socialism.

Canada is a great country to live if that’s your jam. They have pretty good hunting too.

 

[Treeshark]

I think Grandpa Gustafson from Grumpy Old Men had about the best end of life a guy could ask for.

Fished, drank beer, ate bacon, chased women into his 90s until he died sitting on a couch overlooking a lake. Not too bad.

 

[BuzzH]

@BuzzH, this is something we mostly agree on, so not picking to pick. But life expectancy for a male in the US that has reached age 65 is 83 or so. When SS was started, it was probably 10+ years less than that.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to consider moving the SS age back a bit, nor do I think it’s appropriate to position SS as the sole means of retirement for most people. In my opinion, that is not what it is intended for- it is an insurance against poverty amongst the elderly. Exactly what that means is subject to interpretation, I do acknowledge that.

If ss wasn't expected to be the sole source of retirement income, then pensions shouldn't have been pushed out in favor of voluntary 401ks.

Expecting people to voluntarily contribute is a leap of faith. Expecting them to keep their hands out of their retirement 401's is another leap of faith.

Result for many is SS being their only source of retirement income.

 

[SAJ-99]

For those of you that want MORE government involvement, you’re only pushing harder towards socialism.

No one has said anything about "more government" in this thread. I think you are honestly missing the reality of the current situation. 75% of Americans oppose cuts to SS payments. The problem, they also oppose increases in taxes (on everyone but the "rich" and corporations, of course) to adequately fund them. So, we largely want the handout and but demand someone else pay for it. It helps if we stop using dog-whistle-alert terms like Socialism and start discuss the path forward we can be comfortable with and pay for it.

I appreciate you posting that data. So if I’m interpreting correctly, life expectancy as it directly relates to SS benefits has increased about 5 years since SS inception. My guess of 10+ years overshot the mark, but I suppose the point is the same.

Here is the actuarial table from SS. It eliminates the youth mortality skew.

 

[Nick87]

If ss wasn't expected to be the sole source of retirement income, then pensions shouldn't have been pushed out in favor of voluntary 401ks.

Expecting people to voluntarily contribute is a leap of faith. Expecting them to keep their hands out of their retirement 401's is another leap of faith.

Result for many is SS being their only source of retirement income.

Total random and isolated deal but my Gramdma shortly after losing my grandpa and then losing most of the farm during the high interest period along with crash of commodity prices never collected a check in her life but also worked from sun up til sundown everyday of her life on the farm coincidentally, had pretty much zero SS. Sad deal to watch as a helpless young kid.

 

[406dn]

If ss wasn't expected to be the sole source of retirement income, then pensions shouldn't have been pushed out in favor of voluntary 401ks.

Expecting people to voluntarily contribute is a leap of faith. Expecting them to keep their hands out of their retirement 401's is another leap of faith.

Result for many is SS being their only source of retirement income.

I think that in the coming 20 years or so, it will be evident that the shift to 401k as the primary retirement funding has failed most Americans. Companies were happy to shift the onus to the employee. Once they pay their match, their obligation is fulfilled. It is entirely the individuals' risk, that the money saved is sufficient.

 

[mxracer317]

If ss wasn't expected to be the sole source of retirement income, then pensions shouldn't have been pushed out in favor of voluntary 401ks.

Expecting people to voluntarily contribute is a leap of faith. Expecting them to keep their hands out of their retirement 401's is another leap of faith.

Result for many is SS being their only source of retirement income.

Social Security was designed for a FEW years only, not 30+ years.

When it was implemented people typically worked until their mid 60s and passed away in their 70’s when life expectancy was shorter. There was no 30 year retirement then.

Ida Mae Fuller who is the first recipient of Social Security, ironically broke the mold by living a longer life for that period of time.

Social Security is a supplement. Not a sole source.

 

[Nick87]

I think that in the coming 20 years or so, it will be evident that the shift to 401k as the primary retirement funding has failed most Americans. Companies were happy to shift the onus to the employee. Once they pay their match, their obligation is fulfilled. It is entirely the individuals' risk, that the money saved is sufficient.

Lucky to have a pension, I will tell my kids to consider this as a major factor while deciding on a career.

 

[mxracer317]

No one has said anything about "more government" in this thread. I think you are honestly missing the reality of the current situation. 75% of Americans oppose cuts to SS payments. The problem, they also oppose increases in taxes (on everyone but the "rich" and corporations, of course) to adequately fund them. So, we largely want the handout and but demand someone else pay for it. It helps if we stop using dog-whistle-alert terms like Socialism and start discuss the path forward we can be comfortable with and pay for it.


Here is the actuarial table from SS. It eliminates the youth mortality skew.
View attachment 320033

I’m from Canada originally, so I feel ok with using the word “socialism” -because that is what more government is.

I also own a wealth management firm and understand the in’s and out’s about Social Security as I deal with it on a daily basis.

No one has to say “more government”, but it’s implied very clearly about people wanting more government handouts and hating on “wealthy” people.

I’m tired of people hating on capitalism and the free markets.

If you want my opinion on how to fix the Social Security program, here it goes:

- Increase taxation on Social Security benefits. Currently, Oprah Winfrey only pays taxes on $168,600 of income for Social Security. Yes, everybody should pay their fair share.

- Increase current full retirement age for younger people from 67 to 72 years old. A 58 year old person right now will have the same full retirement (FRA) age of 67 as someone who is 30 years old.

I have more ideas. But for now, I feel pretty good that those two ideas will fill up the coffers of the Social Security trust fund.

 

[Treeshark]

If ss wasn't expected to be the sole source of retirement income, then pensions shouldn't have been pushed out in favor of voluntary 401ks.

Non sequitur.

I think we may have a bit of a differing view on whether retiring comfortably at age 65 is a birth-right vs something that should be earned.

 

[BuzzH]

Non sequitur.

I think we may have a bit of a differing view on whether retiring comfortably at age 65 is a birth-right vs something that should be earned.

401's need to be mandatory then, no matching requirements but 5-10% mandatory contribution by employer. Combine that with individual not having access to the employer contribution until retirement. Only thing that employees should be able to access prior to retirement is their contribution.

401's are not working for a huge portion of the working class.

I'm retiring way before 65.

 

[Marshian]

If ss wasn't expected to be the sole source of retirement income, then pensions shouldn't have been pushed out in favor of voluntary 401ks.

Expecting people to voluntarily contribute is a leap of faith. Expecting them to keep their hands out of their retirement 401's is another leap of faith.

Result for many is SS being their only source of retirement income.

Your middle paragraph is a bit of a sad commentary on the responsibility of your average adult. I understand that life happens, but far too often, this kind of thing is really inexcusable. Especially with employer match, tax sheltering and early withdrawal penalties, it doesnt take a math genius to know to fund it as heavily as you can and leave it the hell alone until you’re old. The alternative is big brother taxing everyone else that much more to subsidize poor decision making. I’m relatively fine with removing the pay in cap, but good grief, your average adult should have some responsibility and some skin in the game.

 

[BuzzH]

Your middle paragraph is a bit of a sad commentary on the responsibility of your average adult. I understand that life happens, but far too often, this kind of thing is really inexcusable. Especially with employer match, tax sheltering and early withdrawal penalties, it doesnt take a math genius to know to fund it as heavily as you can and leave it the hell alone until you’re old. The alternative is big brother taxing everyone else that much more to subsidize poor decision making. I’m relatively fine with removing the pay in cap, but good grief, your average adult should have some responsibility and some skin in the game.

Trouble is, a good portion of people see that pot of money and all of a sudden it's, " I need a new truck, camp trailer, ATV, boat, vacation"...

Why there needs to be more than penalties for early raiding of 401's.

Totally agree, it's a sad commentary, but reality is what it is.

 

[Treeshark]

I'm retiring way before 65.

Good for you man, I mean it. Working my ass off to make that happen for my wife and I as well.

 

[Treeshark]

good grief, your average adult should have some responsibility and some skin in the game.

This is the crux of it for me too.

Social Security is a fantastic thing that we should all be thankful for. As the saying goes, we are all just one bad decision or event from being homeless. But there has to be a place for personal responsibility in this discussion somewhere or it becomes very difficult to reconcile.