Montana - Time to Shake it Up?

[Carnage2011]

One thing that I think would be interesting is to know when deer are harvested. I don’t think mandatory reporting will be some kind of magic wand like many on here do, but if a hunter had to report on the day of harvest we could get some good data.

I keep reading on here that Everyone here wants to shorten seasons. How short? Michigan learned from their reporting requirements that the vast majority of their harvest is in the first two days of the season. So where do we see an impact if we shorten seasons? Do we just make the season two days long? If it’s longer than that, are we gaining much or just appeasing the public?

Montana’s deer population was 385k in 2017. That’s the highest of any point since 2006. It was the lowest around 2012. It’s fairly easy to see that most of the time these numbers are directly related to the weather conditions leading up to that specific time frame.

I’d love to see more mature bucks on the landscape, but I think most of the suggestions are just a bandaid. With Montana’s population rising and habitat being infringed on more and more, we are going to end up at a statewide LE model at some
Point. Might be 30 years but that’s where it will head. I don’t think shortening seasons will magically make people eat more tags. If anything I think hunters may get less picky due to less time allotted. I definitely understand the idea of shifting seasons out of the rut.

Hunttalk has some very knowledgeable guys, but as I’ve said before, we don’t make up the majority of Montana hunters. Montana hunters want long seasons and I guarantee FWP isn’t going to make any kind of significant changes to our current structure. After being on the elk management citizens advisory group I was asked by someone from FWP what my thoughts were. I explained that we had some good discussions but it was very evident to me that the majority of Montana hunters are happy with what they have today.

And before someone says “it’s not about what people want, it’s about the resource,” FWP manages the resource for the people of Montana. We aren’t in jeopardy of the resource going extinct and people value long seasons over mature bucks.

 

[rogerthat]

One thing that I think would be interesting is to know when deer are harvested. I don’t think mandatory reporting will be some kind of magic wand like many on here do, but if a hunter had to report on the day of harvest we could get some good data.

I keep reading on here that Everyone here wants to shorten seasons. How short? Michigan learned from their reporting requirements that the vast majority of their harvest is in the first two days of the season. So where do we see an impact if we shorten seasons? Do we just make the season two days long? If it’s longer than that, are we gaining much or just appeasing the public?

Montana’s deer population was 385k in 2017. That’s the highest of any point since 2006. It was the lowest around 2012. It’s fairly easy to see that most of the time these numbers are directly related to the weather conditions leading up to that specific time frame.

I’d love to see more mature bucks on the landscape, but I think most of the suggestions are just a bandaid. With Montana’s population rising and habitat being infringed on more and more, we are going to end up at a statewide LE model at some
Point. Might be 30 years but that’s where it will head. I don’t think shortening seasons will magically make people eat more tags. If anything I think hunters may get less picky due to less time allotted. I definitely understand the idea of shifting seasons out of the rut.

Hunttalk has some very knowledgeable guys, but as I’ve said before, we don’t make up the majority of Montana hunters. Montana hunters want long seasons and I guarantee FWP isn’t going to make any kind of significant changes to our current structure. After being on the elk management citizens advisory group I was asked by someone from FWP what my thoughts were. I explained that we had some good discussions but it was very evident to me that the majority of Montana hunters are happy with what they have today.

And before someone says “it’s not about what people want, it’s about the resource,” FWP manages the resource for the people of Montana. We aren’t in jeopardy of the resource going extinct and people value long seasons over mature bucks.

If you want more magnum xl bucks don’t hunt the rut. It’s that simple. Regarding the long term downward trend in populations (think longer than 20 years) not shooting does on public is a good move

 

[Carnage2011]

If you want more magnum xl bucks don’t hunt the rut. It’s that simple. Regarding the long term downward trend in populations (think longer than 20 years) not shooting does on public is a good move

Why did you quote me? I said I agreed on shifting dates out of the rut and never once mentioned does. Did you read what I said? Or just felt like throwing something out there?

 

[cgasner1]

raised on a ranch in region 4, and we explored in region 6 frequently. It's not like I didn't grow up and see there isnt close to the amount mulies or age class currently. That's why me and GW I was busting his balls about not letting any of them grow. Long story short remember.... Watched fields of deer on the drive to the ranch.. drive by the same ones today and there's maybe a dozen on a good day. I get it there's not 1000s to choose from anymore.

I'm not saying you guys don't care.. I just think your walking a fine line... take does off the table. I don't have that answer for you guys either. But from traveling last season biggest issue I saw is if the nr pressure doesn't get evenly distributed better over the state.. its all concentrated on that side. Besides mayb some elk hunters here. Thats what I got. It used to be a day hunt for my uncles to find a 170+. Trust me I hear how much the areas gone to hell. From my uncle and dad. I just think you are all walking on the line with this one. Personally. Maybe it's the old heads I grew up with in the back of my head too. Take something away gets pretty hard to get it back. Maybe I haven't evolved enough. Id rather think of it how do we add more and keep opportunities. And maybe that's idea is to far gone. But I sincerely think if nr would use the whole state it would help. We got deer all over. They are just after a certain hunt. And mayb that is what was referred to as a "easy opportunity" rutting mulies being dumb running the prairie sure... or maybe just maybe if half of everyone with tags didn't go there. Maybe if you harvest a deer in regions 7 6 4 etc you must havest from another district your next visit or if it was a mule deer gotta harvest a whitetail next year. Again I do not have the answer.

I wont be back for awhile. plans for this year in Idaho and planning something with my father in law to NZ for 2025. But that depends what pocket your referencing.. biggest one had alot of people too. It's not some hidey hole. Everyone with maps seen what I saw. It was packed in the area. To my point it don't matter If it's a month shorter. People are going to be very close to just as efficient. Maps.. roads.. glass. It's litterally a wet dream for hunters... east is just set up that way. So shave a month with the same amount of tags.. just puts more people and pressure in one month. they will still be going to the east.. and are going to be very close to as efficient as before. To my point I only needed 4 days to obtain 2 elk and 3 deer. Time has nothing to do with it if you want to be efficient. 30 or 60 days. Isnt going to matter. Just sounds like more concentrated pressure with the same amount of people cramming in during 1 month instead of 2. Imagine little malta and glasgow trying to accommodate the amount of people they do over a 2 month period vs cramming it all into 1 lol someone better open another hotel up there.

It’s pretty easy to rattle off some ideas on here. I’m sure the group would appreciate help post up what you think should happen. The cause and effect of trying to change stuff is pretty wild. There is a reason Ben brought in such a wide variety of people. Hell feel free to pm me your solution so the guys on here don’t tear it apart and show you why it won’t work.

 

[Hunt West]

If you want more magnum xl bucks don’t hunt the rut. It’s that simple. Regarding the long term downward trend in populations (think longer than 20 years) not shooting does on public is a good move

Sounds so simple, but this would have the quickest positive impact for deer. I often wonder what potential benefit there could be from getting rid of the combination (deer/elk) tag and staggering the seasons. I’d be interested to know how many deer die as victims of opportunity during an elk hunt. I’m sure it’s more than a few.

 

[YukonGold]

One thing that I think would be interesting is to know when deer are harvested. I don’t think mandatory reporting will be some kind of magic wand like many on here do, but if a hunter had to report on the day of harvest we could get some good data.

I wonder if check station data would show that trend? Has anyone looked at that?

 

[Visiting Hunter]

@Visiting Hunter, did you hunt with the “Come home to hunt” or “Nonresident Native” tag? Those half priced NR licenses are adding several thousand hunters above the original NR cap on the landscape each year.

The self-serving legislators who passed those bills deserve a solid kick in the gonads.

I agree with that.

And no I have been a resident all 31 years of life. My mom kidnapped me for a 6months or so and took me to Chicago when I was 7 or 8. So 30 in a half ish years.

 

[Nick87]

. I don’t think mandatory reporting will be some kind of magic wand like many on here do, but if a hunter had to report on the day of harvest we could get some good data.

We do it here, have forever. Takes literally 30 seconds. Get a conformation number at the end of reporting to put on your tag. If you don't have the number your amd your checked your tag is invalid. Stupidly simple. When I started hunting western states I couldn't believe how none of them follow the same practice.

 

[WanderWoman]

I wonder if check station data would show that trend? Has anyone looked at that?

Montana has some older harvest data from the 80s-90s that breaks down harvest by time period (week of the season). I think they stopped gathering that data in 2004, which unfortunately is the oldest harvest data you can find online. Maybe Helena or the regional offices have hard copies still that someone could take a look at. Check stations would provide a snapshot or index of that I guess but they would still miss a lot I think.

 

[8andcounting]

@Visiting Hunter, did you hunt with the “Come home to hunt” or “Nonresident Native” tag? Those half priced NR licenses are adding several thousand hunters above the original NR cap on the landscape each year.

The self-serving legislators who passed those bills deserve a solid kick in the gonads.

The resident free for all of buy a tag otc and go anywhere anytime is much more of a problem until Residents give up opportunities not much will change

But also - yes the NR tags need to be 17,000 and that’s it no more come home to hunt and landowners sponsored and all that

 

[Carnage2011]

The resident free for all of buy a tag otc and go anywhere anytime is much more of a problem until Residents give up opportunities not much will change

But also - yes the NR tags need to be 17,000 and that’s it no more come home to hunt and landowners sponsored and all that

From the feedback we got on the EMCAG, residents won’t accept any sort of limits until we see non resident restrictions.

 

[Ben Lamb]

It is no small task to try and find a path forward that recognizes and embraces Montana's historic egalitarian and wide open seasons while trying to manage for a better outcome for mule deer. The warnings of @Elky Welky & @Visiting Hunter about maintaining opportunity ahead of rack size is 100% spot on.

And to the credit of the group that gave up a weekend to go sit in a room to talk about this, they want to preserve that as well while looking out for the overall health and wellness of mule deer in Montana.

I'm running behind on compiling their thoughts, but the ideas I'm seeing from folks would increase the quality of the hunt while also preserving the opportunity to take a rifle or bow for a walk.

Or a crossbow if you're so inclined but only during the rifle season, please.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

Have you ever hunted mature mule deer in October? Going off your comments I would say nope. You don’t know what you don’t know I guess. You would do yourself well to soak up some knowledge from some of the folks on here. Years and years of experience in Montana and mule deer. Less talking more listening

Edit: to be clear I’m an opponent of limited entry. I’m an advocate for some concern and management changes addressing the current downward trend in mule deer statewide.

I'm not bragging about how awesome it is in montana. But can I find a mule deer in October absolutely. I'm saying it fit the standard for what he explained they manage for.

 

[rogerthat]

I'm not bragging about how awesome it is in montana. But can I find a mule deer in October absolutely. I'm saying it fit the standard for what he explained they manage for.

Can you find that 7.5 year old in October that has made it through a bunch of past seasons? That’s a better question

 

[brockel]

One thing that I think would be interesting is to know when deer are harvested. I don’t think mandatory reporting will be some kind of magic wand like many on here do, but if a hunter had to report on the day of harvest we could get some good data.

I keep reading on here that Everyone here wants to shorten seasons. How short? Michigan learned from their reporting requirements that the vast majority of their harvest is in the first two days of the season. So where do we see an impact if we shorten seasons? Do we just make the season two days long? If it’s longer than that, are we gaining much or just appeasing the public?

Montana’s deer population was 385k in 2017. That’s the highest of any point since 2006. It was the lowest around 2012. It’s fairly easy to see that most of the time these numbers are directly related to the weather conditions leading up to that specific time frame.

I’d love to see more mature bucks on the landscape, but I think most of the suggestions are just a bandaid. With Montana’s population rising and habitat being infringed on more and more, we are going to end up at a statewide LE model at some
Point. Might be 30 years but that’s where it will head. I don’t think shortening seasons will magically make people eat more tags. If anything I think hunters may get less picky due to less time allotted. I definitely understand the idea of shifting seasons out of the rut.

Hunttalk has some very knowledgeable guys, but as I’ve said before, we don’t make up the majority of Montana hunters. Montana hunters want long seasons and I guarantee FWP isn’t going to make any kind of significant changes to our current structure. After being on the elk management citizens advisory group I was asked by someone from FWP what my thoughts were. I explained that we had some good discussions but it was very evident to me that the majority of Montana hunters are happy with what they have today.

And before someone says “it’s not about what people want, it’s about the resource,” FWP manages the resource for the people of Montana. We aren’t in jeopardy of the resource going extinct and people value long seasons over mature bucks.

Move the season from October 1-31 and I can guarantee less bucks are killed.
I know plenty of people that don’t even start hunting until after the first week of November because they can drive around all day long and catch a buck cruising for does all day long. Park over the hill and make a 300 yard sneak and kill the buck. I know of one individual that gets two oil changes a rifle season and he doesn’t leave eastern Montana. Ya there will still be bucks killed in October from driving around but way less than driving around during the rut.

 

[rogerthat]

I'm not bragging about how awesome it is in montana. But can I find a mule deer in October absolutely. I'm saying it fit the standard for what he explained they manage for.

One other point I would push back on the game warden is that managing for opportunity doesn’t equal rut hunting. Idaho is also managed for opportunity. It doesn’t have to be an either or management strategy it could be and

 

[TOGIE]

as is (should) be obvious to most here

opportunity = chance to go
quality = combination of factors including lack of crowding, high odds to kill, and high odds to kill big

everyone has different preferred intersections on the graph wherein there is some personal optimal combination of the two on a general type tag. mule deer populations don't have to suffer to achieve a proper place for nearly everyone. but like politics if it's done right the solution for mule deer will leave a little something to be desired for everyone.

 

[8andcounting]

From the feedback we got on the EMCAG, residents won’t accept any sort of limits until we see non resident restrictions.

Needs to be those too . No free for all hunt for 11 weeks all over the state . Pick your area and more LE .

 

[cowboy]

I'm running behind on compiling their thoughts, but the ideas I'm seeing from folks would increase the quality of the hunt while also preserving the opportunity to take a rifle or bow for a walk.

Looking forward to reading the compilation of the groups thoughts.

And furthermore, I want to thank this group for taking their personal time and money to get together. I’d buy everyone of them a beverage of their choice if I ever got the chance. Hopefully my Grandkids will get at least 1/2 the opportunity/quality I have been blessed to have.
GUYS - THANK YOU.

 

[Visiting Hunter]

One other point I would push back on the game warden is that managing for opportunity doesn’t equal rut hunting. Idaho is also managed for opportunity. It doesn’t have to be an either or management strategy it could be and

No I haven't and I likely never will. There isn't any left according to everyone here.

Also I'm sure you work... you ever just had a random stranger come up and tell you how to do your job? I called for property to see how to access.. if my map was full of shit or not... peice has highway right threw it.. so you would think the ditch is public... but its not. I wasn't even trying to talk deer... maybe bust his balls a little and give em the ol let em grow a little.. well you know how it goes 15 20 mins later.. I dont think he was full of shit by anymeans. Even gave me the ol off duty recommendations... like I said I cliffnotes... man if some goober showed up one day and told me how to paint... come on man.

It’s pretty easy to rattle off some ideas on here. I’m sure the group would appreciate help post up what you think should happen. The cause and effect of trying to change stuff is pretty wild. There is a reason Ben brought in such a wide variety of people. Hell feel free to pm me your solution so the guys on here don’t tear it apart and show you why it won’t work.

I mean I'm happy to chat. But I'm obviously far out there in the weeds.. So I'm not sure what ideas I have would even be worth mentioning. I shared a experience I wasn't sharing what should or should not be done.