Montana Sheep Help

[HighWildFree]

Hey everyone,

Long time lurker, this is a great site and a great community. I hate to be asking for my first post but...

I was lucky enough to draw a ram tag this year West of Missoula and I know a few members on here have experience hunting that herd. I'd appreciate any help getting me started in the right direction. I've driven the roads and talk to the biologist. I've seen some ewes, lambs, and immature rams.

Or heck if anyone wants to share a sheep hunting story. I always enjoy hearing them and they usually have some good pointers.

 

[HighWildFree]

Huh, Nothing? Bummer

 

[Big Fin]

Huh, Nothing? Bummer

I suspect very few people have had the tag and have any first hand information. A named unit might help people know the unit where you are specifically inquiring.

 

[HighWildFree]

I figured as much. Just trying to get my sheep fix any way I can until I can go scouting again. It's Unit 203 by the way.

 

[Bambistew]

Try to get a hold of Bighornram on this forum. He might be able to help out.

My advice.... wait until October you'll see way more sheep. The ones you scout now may be in a different zip code come hunting season.

Good luck on your hunt

 

[BuzzH]

Heres a ram from 203 that a good friend of mine shot several years ago.

We hunted in early November, pre-rut by a good 10 days, the rams were still bunched up.

The day my buddy killed this ram, we probably saw about 20 or so rams. I located a group of 3, that his ram was in, as well as one other really good ram. It was a tough choice between the top 2 in that group. The other good ram in the group of 3 was an absolute dinosaur, heavily broomed. That year he was 14.5 years old and was killed the very next year, almost in the same exact spot and was 15.5 years old. I was surprised he made it through the year I saw him.

Anyway, heres a picture of me with my buddies ram, it was 10.5 years old, just a pinch over 40 on both horns and net scores 179 B&C. Oh, and the 15.5 year old ram scored exactly 180 net.

I have no idea how that herd is doing now, but no question it has declined a bunch from the late 80's-mid 90's.

I wouldnt pass a ram that I thought would score 180 there...no way. I think its pretty unrealistic to hold out for a ram much over that. I think even 180 is going to take some time and luck.

I would start by looking in the Petty Creek Pastures, Horse Creek, and Printers Creek areas. Later in the year Madison Gulch is worth a look, I've seen some pretty good rams there. The salt lick right off the main road will have rams around it as well. Look on the West Side of the main road some too, I've seen rams on that side from time-to-time as well.

Its a good hunt and a neat area, just dont be expecting a 190 ram...I think you'd be largely hunting a ghost, and living on the memories of what 203 used to be.

Just my advice.

 

[HighWildFree]

Thanks guys, I will probably be hunting mid-October as I have to guide during rifle season. I'm not looking to take the next state record, just a mature ram. I had a good idea as to trophy potential when I applied. Any ideas as to why the trophy quality has gone down?

 

[BuzzH]

The story of Montana's sheep...they do really well right after they're introduced then fade away over time.

Probably a combination of habitat and killing rams when they're too young (tough to pass a 6 year old ram that scores 185-190). I think the best genetics get shot out pretty fast in some of MT's herds.

If hunters could pass on those young, high scoring rams, and select rams over 8 years old...I think the declines in quality would happen much slower.

Easy to say...hard to do when you're the tag holder and have a clear record book ram thats only 6-7 years old standing there.

 

[----]

Gilchrist had some pretty similar thoughts to it as Buzz in his land of the giant rams books.

While I see no holes in that explanation, it does seem somewhat odd that so many units all peaked in the same ten year period. Rock creek, Anaconda, Petty and the sanders county units were all cranking out amazing rams in the late 80's and early nineties. I'd have to look, but I guess maybe they were all reintroduced in the same time period as well. Pretty sure they all came from Sun River stock.

I really dig the petty creek genetics though, they seem to have a lower, sweeping curl more often. Makes for an impressive sheep. The ram Buzz posted would be a great representative for the unit. It's not the breaks by any means, but it's a very healthy herd with good genetics and age class. I'd put it right up with any other of the mountain units right now.

Been scouting up there yet? It's a chimney right now, but at least looks like the fire won't get over in to petty any.

 

[HighWildFree]

Easy to say...hard to do when you're the tag holder and have a clear record book ram thats only 6-7 years old standing there.

I'd have to agree with you on that one. Harder to manage trophy quality with what is likely a once in a lifetime tag. No one has a vested interest in passing on the younger rams.

On another note it seems that there was an approx. 183 Ram killed in 203 last year. Hopefully his brother is still wandering around up there

 

[HighWildFree]

Randy. I was up there last week doing some basic scouting and saw a band of ewes with some very young rams. I've been working down south next to the other chimney up the West Fork, so hoping to get back up there and look around some more. Yeah I'm not too worried about the fire heading over there. Not much fun glassing through smoke though.

 

[Carrion Carrier]

PM sent.

 

[David R.]

There are records of sheep transplants in Montana starting in 1922 with 12 sheep from Banff, Alberta going to the bison Range, here are a few of the areas mentioned in previous posts. 1968 --- 16 sheep to Petty Creek from Sun River. 1975 --- 32 sheep to Berray Mtn. , Sanders Co. from Ford Creek , Lewis & Clark Co. 1975 -- 31 sheep to Rock Creek from Sun River. !979 --- 25 sheep to Rock Creek from Wild Horse Island. 1980 -- 28 sheep to Missouri River Breaks - (680), Phillips County. 1985 --- 4 sheep to Petty Creek from National Bison Range.

 

[HighWildFree]

Just though I'd give you guys an update. Be out about half a dozen times. Still haven't located any legal rams. Seen plenty of ewes and lambs on Cinderella. Plenty of wolves and coyotes up on those mountains too.

I'm starting to think this might be a late season kind of hunt. I can probably get about 5 days at the end of the season. I'd hate to wait til the end but If I can't find anything here in the next week or so.

Kind of a boring update. Hopefully next time I'll have something more exciting.

 

[Carrion Carrier]

I've been looking for you, but the rams are in the timber. Hopefully I will have better reports once rifle opens up and sheep start moving toward the rutting areas.

 

[HighWildFree]

Thanks Carrion I appreciate the extra eyes. I figured they have to be holding tight to the timber right now. I thought I was going to get a crack at a wolf up there the other day as there were some pretty fresh tracks from a pack of about 4.

Unfortunately I have to guide during rifle season, but maybe I can slip away for a day or two.

 

[walking buffalo]

To HWF, I hope you have a great hunt.

I can't help you out on information on this herd but feel obligated to throw in some insight to the hunting induced "Genetic Selection" claim brought up by Buzz.

The story of Montana's sheep...they do really well right after they're introduced then fade away over time.

Probably a combination of habitat and killing rams when they're too young (tough to pass a 6 year old ram that scores 185-190). I think the best genetics get shot out pretty fast in some of MT's herds.

If hunters could pass on those young, high scoring rams, and select rams over 8 years old...I think the declines in quality would happen much slower.

Easy to say...hard to do when you're the tag holder and have a clear record book ram thats only 6-7 years old standing there.

I cringe when hunters make the claim that the best Genetics have been shot out of a herd.

This is the present argument being promoted internationally by anti-hunting wildlife managers and those who are opposed to "trophy" hunting. The theory (promoted as fact) is often labelled "hunting induced genetic selection".

Regarding wild sheep, FNAWS and the WSF have been in a battle since 2005 to counter this theory being propagated in an attempt to reduce or eliminate the harvest of mature animals.

It has been well known for decades that horn size in wild sheep follow a direct correlation to the quality of the environment and the vitality and vigor of the population. Young herds (newly introduced herds and the age structure of the ewe component) well under the carrying capacity of the range have a high vitality and produce larger horned rams than herds at or above carrying capacity and comprised with an older age class of ewes.


See the trend with the above explanation as applied to Buzz's comment?

"The story of Montana's sheep...they do really well right after they're introduced then fade away over time."

 

[----]

Stick with it and don't settle, there's some toads in there and you'll eventually get a crack at one.

If you can save even a weekend in November to hit that Cinderella/Madison gulch area, you'll get a good ram. Even if you have to wait til thanksgiving you'll be in pretty good shape, and probably be the only ram hunter left.

 

[kiwi hunter]

here in nz we manage the range and genetics by shooting females to lower the over population bias

 

[Carrion Carrier]

I'm afraid that constantly shooting the most fit animals out of a herd is selecting for less fit animals in a herd and I don't see how an argument can be made against that.

The reason most sheep herds do so well after reintroduction seem obvious. Their food source is being utilized and is not the same quality as before reintroduction. Predators learn to key in on sheep and produce babies that key in on sheep. Disease causing organisms build up in the area and resulting outbreaks have long-lasting implications on the herd's health.