Montana Preference Point Expiration MT HB637

[BlakeA]

You can turn your combo in but only for an 80% refund, correct?

Things have changed a lot in the last 2 years, but in 2017 I tried essentially what you suggest and all in between bonus points, pref points and the refund charge plus stamps etc it was like $300 a year for a NR to build points.

Screw that…

Correct. It's over $300. The amount of $$$ I've given them between eating deer tags and 20% of license fees after turn backs over the last decade is not something I enjoy thinking about

But hey, I have a shitload of bonus points in a state that will eventually go full UNLIMITED!

 

[MTGomer]

Why do they have to make this so confusing. It just doesn't make sense to me. Draw systems don't have to be confusing.

Oh come on man, you mean it’s not perfectly logical to have to acquire preference points that sometimes give you less preference than no points, to acquire a license you may not want, just to become eligible to be in the draw for a permit that you do want.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

"we need to make things less complicated for the hunter" - Hank

 

[SCliving Outdoors]

Oh come on man, you mean it’s not perfectly logical to have to acquire preference points that sometimes give you less preference than no points, to acquire a license you may not want, just to become eligible to be in the draw for a permit that you do want.

That sums it up pretty well.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I understand the frustrations here regarding cost and overall structure of the system. However I can’t help but think back to the last couple seasons of people complaining that they can no longer draw with 0-1 point consistently. Playing devils advocate, if this effectively takes people out of the game of stacking PP’s to “plan” for three years+ out for general tags then maybe the intent is to make it easier to draw at lower point levels. If that case turns out to be true then I really don’t have problem with it, as you all know it seems a lot of people buy points just to have them...

The intent is to make guiding hunting more appealing and make it as hard as possible for people to go DIY.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Oh come on man, you mean it’s not perfectly logical to have to acquire preference points that sometimes give you less preference than no points, to acquire a license you may not want, just to become eligible to be in the draw for a permit that you do want.

You forgot tying the deer and elk permits together with a combo.

There isn’t a “ if I draw neither permit give me a refund, but if I draw deer keep the combo or if I draw elk keep the combo”

So the deer draw is first, and if you don’t draw the deer then they toss your combo so you aren’t actually in the drawing for elk. You can get an elk combo or deer combo separately but this costs way more money.

 

[MTGomer]

You forgot tying the deer and elk permits together with a combo.

There isn’t a “ if I draw neither permit give me a refund, but if I draw deer keep the combo or if I draw elk keep the combo”

So the deer draw is first, and if you don’t draw the deer then they toss your combo so you aren’t actually in the drawing for elk. You can get an elk combo or deer combo separately but this costs way more money.

 

[Ben Lamb]

We're all shocked that the bill written by the Outfitting Industry is screwing over everyone but their sports, right?

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

We're all shocked that the bill written by the Outfitting Industry is screwing over everyone but their sports, right?

No we aren't all shocked that the Outfitting Industry used a core-lokt as a crayon and wrote the bill on back of a coffee can and sent it to the New Jersey gov who Tony Soprano'd it into being.

 

[targetpanic]

Man I thought I had an understanding of the NR PP system...now I'm confused as ever! Can someone answer a couple questions
1) I thought the NR General deer combo quota was 4600, yet they gave out
9,296 2019
9,868 2020
9,868 2021 how does that work?????
2)In 2021 they gave out 9,894 (or 9868 depending on what spreadsheet you look at) NR Gen Deer Combo licenses.
7,420 went to PP holders and 2,474 went to applicants with 0 PP.
The 7,420 took all of the 3pp holders, all of the 2pp holders and 5045 people with 1pp. That leaves 7,516 people with 1pp, which if they all apply and buy another point in 2022 AND the # of licenses stays the same there would be NOBODY drawn with 1pp and even the 2pp holders will not be 100% draw correct????
3) Is there a report anywhere that says how many people at each point level are sitting on the sidelines?? That could throw the numbers off even more!

 

[Ben Lamb]

When someone turns in the deer portion of the deer/elk combo it gets turned back around as a deer combo. The bill was from 2013 or so. That's why there's so many deer combo licenses sold over the cap.

 

[targetpanic]

When someone turns in the deer portion of the deer/elk combo it gets turned back around as a deer combo. The bill was from 2013 or so. That's why there's so many deer combo licenses sold over the cap.

And that is determined at the beginning of the draw when they fill out their application to say "If I don't draw my limited entry deer then I want a refund" correct??

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Man I thought I had an understanding of the NR PP system...now I'm confused as ever! Can someone answer a couple questions
1) I thought the NR General deer combo quota was 4600, yet they gave out
9,296 2019
9,868 2020
9,868 2021 how does that work?????
2)In 2021 they gave out 9,894 (or 9868 depending on what spreadsheet you look at) NR Gen Deer Combo licenses.
7,420 went to PP holders and 2,474 went to applicants with 0 PP.
The 7,420 took all of the 3pp holders, all of the 2pp holders and 5045 people with 1pp. That leaves 7,516 people with 1pp, which if they all apply and buy another point in 2022 AND the # of licenses stays the same there would be NOBODY drawn with 1pp and even the 2pp holders will not be 100% draw correct????
3) Is there a report anywhere that says how many people at each point level are sitting on the sidelines?? That could throw the numbers off even more!

When someone turns in the deer portion of the deer/elk combo it gets turned back around as a deer combo. The bill was from 2013 or so. That's why there's so many deer combo licenses sold over the cap.

How do Landowner and Montana native tags play into these numbers?

 

[Ben Lamb]

And that is determined at the beginning of the draw when they fill out their application to say "If I don't draw my limited entry deer then I want a refund" correct??

I'm not sure.

How do Landowner and Montana native tags play into these numbers?

The Landowner set asides are another 2000 B11's that are available and 500 Elk, 500 Deer & 500 Antelope for the Come Home to Hunt, and the Native is unlimited. I don't know what the total on those is off the top of my head.

We've blown way past any semblance of living with the caps.

 

[Gerald Martin]

No we aren't all shocked that the Outfitting Industry used a core-lokt as a crayon and wrote the bill on back of a coffee can and sent it to the New Jersey gov who Tony Soprano'd it into being.

I feel like this is borderline libel. You should apologize to Tony Soprano.

 

[goodhunt]

So here is something for you; reading all this got me wondering what ended up happening to my points. I bought a preference point in the fall of 2019, expecting to apply for a combo license in 2020. COVID impacts resulted in other plans and I didn't end up applying in the spring of 2020 as initially planned. I went ahead and bought a preference point, expecting to hunt the general tag in 2021 instead. Well I messed around and drew an arizona tag in 2021 and couldn't get the time off to do both AZ and MT. So I didn't apply in the MT 2021 spring draw either, fully expecting to loose my 2 preference points (3 consecutive years without applying- 2019, 2020, 2021). I called MT FWP and the lady I spoke to confirmed I should loose my 2 accumulated points if I didn't apply in the 2021 spring draw. She also advised me not to buy a preference point in the fall of 2021 (that would have brought me to 3) since they purged the points after the point purchasing period in the fall. I was willing to just write it off and figured I'd give MT a try at a later date when they figured everything out.

Fast forward to today. I logged in and low and behold, the 2 points were still on my account. I made a quick call to FWP. The lady I spoke with said that, based on her understanding, I should have lost them. However, there's been so many changes the last 3 years maybe I was grandfathered in with my original points? She said it looked good on her side that I had 2 preference points so I should be good to enter the draw this year expecting I have 2 points. She believed the system had already been updated but did advise I check again before entering the draw in March just to be sure.

At the end of the day, I'm in the middle of trying to figure out my fall plans and I may or may not have enough preference points in Montana to draw. I'll probably just eat them and move on, but I can see how this would frustrate most people.

 

[targetpanic]

And just so I'm remembering correctly, the 60% Outfitter set aside of NR Combo licenses got canned correct? In 2021 if you booked w an outfitter but did not draw a tag, you could buy one anyways...and going forward outfitted clients can buy 2 pp?

 

[Ben Lamb]

And just so I'm remembering correctly, the 60% Outfitter set aside of NR Combo licenses got canned correct? In 2021 if you booked w an outfitter but did not draw a tag, you could buy one anyways...and going forward outfitted clients can buy 2 pp?

Correct. The 60% bill died, and what was replaced was the point grab along with unlimited outfitter tags for a year.

 

[Trial153]

WTF ?

 

[Ben Lamb]

WTF ?

And, if you really want to feel this statement deep in your bones, here's the statutes on licensing:

CHAPTER 2. FISHING, HUNTING, AND TRAPPING LICENSES - Table of Contents, Title 87, MCA

leg.mt.gov