Montana muley management

[phutch30]

The antler restrictions dont work, they have tried it. The T-roots used to be a 4pnt area. They found they just get shot as soon as they reach the legal size. If you want bigger deer you have to restrict harvest i.e less tags or shorter seasons. This isnt going to happen anytime soon in MT. Everyone wants to shoot big deer unless it impacts them.

I'd personally like to see mule deer go entirly to limited draw. But that isnt going to happen either. I do think going to unlimited/limited tags would help some. In that you pick a unit and thats the ONLY unit you can hunt mule deer in.

We also need to drastically improve deer habitat. One way to do this would be to let more of our fires burn larger areas. This would have a huge impact on increasing quality deer habitat.

 

[belly-deep]

The Marias River and Sweetgrass Hills have long closed after three weeks. There is absolutely no doubt that it allows a higher degree of escapement for bucks.

Guys that hunt those areas seem to agree.

My guess is that were the rest of the state to close at the same time, any benefit would disappear.

Last weekend panic kills MT deer in November just the same as Utah deer in October.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Having known and worked with a significant number of biologists I can assure everyone that they do not all know what they're doing. Oak and Miller are legit, but they aren't necessarily the rule. Many have their own agendas, modified and occasionally meshing with science and their agency stance.

 

[Nunyacreek]

I'm no expert in quality of, or management of deer populations, but I do try to learn as much as possible. I was surprised to listen to Randy's latest podcast (#007) with Ed Arnett, Senior Biologist at the TRC Partnership about the quality of habitat that we have here in the west. In that podcast he said that hunters and hunting seasons are not a problem for the quality, of or numbers of deer populations. The number one problem is habitat and what we are doing to help, or hurt that habitat. Population, urban sprawl, natural resource development, fires, etc. play much more of a role in what happens to the habitat of mule deer and every other species of wildlife in the ecosystem. The wildlife biologists know what they are doing when it comes to management of the deer season, and I will defer to their knowledge and experience. According to him, they have made great strides in helping those habitats for the last 10 years, and hopefully they can continue the trend.

Maybe I missed something but I thought that specific point was to the hunting of sage grouse. Habitat management certain helps deer but it probably means we'll have fewer elk, and mule deer declines and especially quality declines occur in Montana in places there is no sagebrush at all. It is obviously multifaceted but in places where there are healthy deer populations shoot fewer bucks and not in November and there'll be bigger bucks.
That said I don't think it's about money and license sales. If you read the hunter surveys on FWP's website people value opportunity over quality. My desires are admittedly elitist, I would prefer quality over quantity but it's a false choice in Montana because we can kind of have our cake and eat it to, get a tag every year and still find quality deer if you try.

 

[El Jason]

Guys that hunt those areas seem to agree.

My guess is that were the rest of the state to close at the same time, any benefit would disappear.

Last weekend panic kills MT deer in November just the same as Utah deer in October.

Yes, but those deer are a whole lot dumber and a lot more visible in the last two weeks of November than they are in the early part of the month.

 

[Point Creep]

I think deer are the dumbest in early November.

 

[belly-deep]

***the above two proposals are very similar to how unit 441 is currently managed. I don't know how successful that season structure has been there, can anyone who know that area better than I chime in on it?.

The lack of implementation elsewhere tells you all you need to know.

441's season structure saves a few bucks that rut down low from being picked off from a ranchers back porch. Whether or not the quality of bucks is better in 441 vs neighboring units is up for debate, as is the question of whether the quality is from the season structure or other factors inherent to the unit.

 

[belly-deep]

Yes, but those deer are a whole lot dumber and a lot more visible in the last two weeks of November than they are in the early part of the month.

I disagree.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The lack of implementation elsewhere tells you all you need to know.

441's season structure saves a few bucks that rut down low from being picked off from a ranchers back porch. Whether or not the quality of bucks is better in 441 vs neighboring units is up for debate, as is the question of whether the quality is from the season structure or other factors inherent to the unit.

One look at a Topo map will help answer some of those questions.

 

[belly-deep]

One look at a Topo map will help answer some of those questions.

You mean roadless or difficult to access areas grow better deer? Who would have thought?

Although some hunters apparently find it preferable to ride around on ATVs in chopped up October seasons.

 

[Ben Lamb]

You mean roadless or difficult to access areas grow better deer? Who would have thought?

Although some hunters apparently find it preferable to ride around on ATVs in chopped up October seasons.

Elitist.

 

[El Jason]

I think deer are the dumbest in early November.

I agree the bigger bucks are dumber early in November. I've killed my biggest deer between Halloween and Veteran's Day.

IMO though, the two year old four points are definitely more vulnerable in the latter part of the month when you factor in cold, snow cover, and rut behavior.

 

[Bambistew]

In Montana the North Tobacco Roots Mountains HD 333 closes the antlered mule deer season on November 15th and has for several seasons. I would be interested in finding out if that closure during the rut has resulted in more mature mulie bucks.

The early closure started in the mid/late 90's if I remember right. Just after they tossed the "choose your district program." The harvest stats show the number of 4pt bucks (3yo+?) taken per year is about half of what it was 10 years ago, from 120, down to about 55. Hunter numbers and effort has remained similar. IMO, the number one reason... they gave out hundreds of doe tags from 2004-2009 and reduced the population.

I have friends and family that have hunted that area for decades. Some who have owned or currently own large tracts of property there. IMO there aren't enough deer in that district for a few to escape the pressure to become big trophy bucks... there is no where to escape to. the genetics/feed like most all of Montana sucks and rarely produce "trophy" class deer no matter how much pressure. It takes a lot of deer for those few with the right stuff to make it to "trophy" status.

I haven't hunted that area in a few years, (maybe 2011), but the access to the best deer habitat is just too easy, as are most areas in the state. Don't kid yourself, the rut is in full swing by the time they close it. There really isn't a ton of quality deer habitat either. The majority of the population is on the north end towards Cardwell, and gets hunted hard... I used to frequent 333 about 20-30 days a year, drive through it 2-3 times a week for years.

There are roads and ATV trails through most all of it, the best deer habitat is private and managed for grazing/ag, poaching runs rampant, road kill is probably in the 200+ animals a year or more (I ran over 3 myself), etc. Also toss in its proximity to Butte, Bozeman, and Helena and you get the picture... too much hunting pressure and humans regardless of season dates.

I don't know if any of you remember the mid/late 90s for 4-5 years when we had to choose what district in SW MT to hunt mule deer and then were restricted to only that unit? It was only for Region 3 if I remember right. IMO, at the tail end of the program (after the FWP considered it a success) and the deer had recovered... the number of mature bucks went from near zero to some of the best deer hunting I'd seen in a long time. They also cut all doe tags. A few years after they ended the program deer hunting turned into what it is today.

I'd like to see them try the choose your unit again, or would love to read up on the studies/conclusion of this program. I haven't been able to find any literature on it.

Something else to keep in mind. Most of Montana doesn't have the genetics or soil minerals to grow truly trophy antlered deer on a regular basis. There are a few exceptions, but not many. Basing management on rack size won't work. There are many mature bucks killed every year that have small racks.

 

[El Jason]

Bambi,

Some great points, including the genetic potential and soil types.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Tobacco Roots were also a 4 point APR in the late 90s? I think 99 or 2000 was when the choose your district mule deer concept ended. Dave Pac would have been the guy in charge of this I believe.

 

[Bambistew]

Bambi,

Some great points, including the genetic potential and soil types.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Tobacco Roots were also a 4 point APR in the late 90s? I think 99 or 2000 was when the choose your district mule deer concept ended. Dave Pac would have been the guy in charge of this I believe.

I forgot about the 4pt rule, as I recall it was only a couple years and may have over lapped the choose your district, or maybe was excluded from the choose your district area? I can't remember. I'll have to see if I can dig up an old hunting reg book... It may have included part of the Gravelies as well? There was a lot of changes in the late 90's and early 2000's all over SW MT.

All I know is I remember seeing hundreds of mule deer in the Madison valley on a regular basis, to seeing virtually none. Going off anecdotal observations of friends and family, the population of deer was similar for the previous 50-60 years... Hell I could count over a hundred from my front porch on a regular basis. Now its rare to see one. There are still a few in the mountains, but nothing like it use to be. I don't think hunting pressure has really changed that much in the last 30-40 years either.

Must have been about '92 or '93 when the mule deer crash happened? I remember horn hunting that spring and finding dozens and dozens of winter kills. They probably committed suicide in preparation of the wolf invasion?

These MT topics are always fun. We want lots of big deer, but we don't want to give up anything!

 

[belly-deep]

Something else to keep in mind. Most of Montana doesn't have the genetics or soil minerals to grow truly trophy antlered deer on a regular basis. There are a few exceptions, but not many. Basing management on rack size won't work. There are many mature bucks killed every year that have small racks.

The record books back that up too. Montana lagged behind the other western trophy deer states in the 50's and 60's when just about everywhere had similar season structures and licensing and conditions were prime for growing big bucks.

Would some restrictions help? Yes, but they would come at a cost. Hunters who think MT will turn into Colorado with some different management are dreaming.

 

[belly-deep]

These MT topics are always fun. We want lots of big deer, but we don't want to give up anything!

I wouldn't mind trying things like "pick a district" or something similar.

The problem is, it becomes a slippery slope and pretty soon things are tightened down so much that opportunity is choked out.

 

[8andcounting]

I agree the bigger bucks are dumber early in November. I've killed my biggest deer between Halloween and Veteran's Day.

IMO though, the two year old four points are definitely more vulnerable in the latter part of the month when you factor in cold, snow cover, and rut behavior.

I agree with you .... We hunt 6 days every year the week of thanksgiving in north central Montana on a big private ranch, We have a 15 min drive from where we stay to the ranch, a lot of the land on that drive is public and stuff that gets hunted, atleast 3-4 times the week we are there I see someone dragging a 2.5 yr old 4 point to the pickup or see it in town in the back of the pickup , they get absolutely slaughtered from about November 15- season close, that week of thanksgiving is like d day for the 2 and 3 yr old bucks.... they don't make it ... Now , my self and people in my group have shot our fair share of those 2 and 3 yr old 18" wide 4 points , so im not knocking people for it at all....... im just stating what happens .... My personal standard is 22" wide 4 point, ive shot enough mule deer to be able to tell you at 200 yards if its 20 or 22 , if its 20 it walks, if its 22 its down, just the way I go about it, maybe I should raise the standard to 24" wide, but then I think most years I might eat my tag, and I work hard to pay for my NR tag and I want some meat for the $ I paid...

 

[Ben Lamb]

I wouldn't mind trying things like "pick a district" or something similar.

The problem is, it becomes a slippery slope and pretty soon things are tightened down so much that opportunity is choked out.

I'e got the 292 permit, which is pick a district. We'll see how it goes.

I'd rather have the opportunity to hunt, than the dream of a big rack, personally.

 

[belly-deep]

I'e got the 292 permit, which is pick a district. We'll see how it goes.

I'd rather have the opportunity to hunt, than the dream of a big rack, personally.

The way I see things, we got the best deal here. We get to hunt every November while we build points in other states.