Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[Elky Welky]

Would you please point out where I said that the average commissioner is more qualified and you’re not?

I don’t think you blast wildlife, but I do think you’re pretty adept at blasting wildlife professionals, who, even if one disagrees with their methods or recommendations, don’t deserve to be trashed online or characterized as gaslighters, or of thinking “what they have now is the ‘best’ they’ve ever seen” (particularly when they write reports that literally say things like, “XX% below long-term average”). I highly doubt that field-staff at FWP wake up in the morning trying to decide who they’re going to bamboozle, or consciously want there to be no more public land elk or 4.5-year old mule deer. Unless of course as part of “giving things thought and trying to understand” you’ve had conversations (with an adequate sample of biologists of course) that have revealed such. If so, my apologies.

Incredibly well said and thoughtful @WanderWoman, thank you. I've had to hit the "ignore" button now on a second person on HT when the conversation finally became reductive, unproductive, and personal. I was surprised about who I had to ultimately block out, because like you said here, I saw that person as an ally in conservation and respect the hell out of their past work. Don't be ashamed to tune out people who don't respect your time and talent here.

 

[cgasner1]

Would you please point out where I said that the average commissioner is more qualified and you’re not?

I don’t think you blast wildlife, but I do think you’re pretty adept at blasting wildlife professionals, who, even if one disagrees with their methods or recommendations, don’t deserve to be trashed online or characterized as gaslighters, or of thinking “what they have now is the ‘best’ they’ve ever seen” (particularly when they write reports that literally say things like, “XX% below long-term average”). I highly doubt that field-staff at FWP wake up in the morning trying to decide who they’re going to bamboozle, or consciously want there to be no more public land elk or 4.5-year old mule deer. Unless of course as part of “giving things thought and trying to understand” you’ve had conversations (with an adequate sample of biologists of course) that have revealed such. If so, my apologies.

Perhaps instead of Gandhi, I should have used the “man in the arena” quote, and I say this knowing full well you have a history of being in the arena on complex and challenging wildlife conservation and public access issues. For that, thank you. Really. I also know a whole slew of FWP biologists that are “in the arena” trying to conserve and manage the resource appropriately, improve private land access, etc., regardless of the disconnect between what/how they do and how it’s perceived. From that history and your background, I’d hope you’d understand a little bit more about the depth and breadth in complexity and challenges that wildlife management and public service is growing into in MT. I won’t rehash all the issues, there’s 130+ pages of that here and elsewhere. What I get from your posts is that no matter what, FWP has all the wrong answers and you have all the right ones, and in your current role as a member of the public advocating for what you want (and thank you for that, too), FWP is so lost, and so corrupt(?), there needs to be a complete do-over. So, get in there and fix it, show them how it’s done, and deal with all the other sides of the public, too. If you don’t think that the current biologists and managers care about the health of the resource, be that change. I’d also like to be a fly on the wall when you try to tell that to said biologist or manager.

If you’d rather take management into your own hands by tossing two pronghorn tags a year, more power to you. I’ll cross my fingers those same two antelope aren’t harvested by someone else or otherwise killed/starved/eaten later on.

Criminy, the last 10 pages or more of this is criticizing FWP for not adequately managing mule deer, and here they are, after revamping AHM in 2021, reopening and completely redoing the entire state management plan for mule deer, again, less than four years later, largely due to public desire to see such (and absolutely yes, a need for it too). In this instance, FWP is literally doing what I feel like the purpose of this thread was initially for — to examine and revise mule deer management in Montana. It’s still going to be a long road ahead but isn’t that in itself kind of a win?

I think it’s great that you’re passionate Buzz, and holy cow I’d love to sit down and hear some undoubtedly awesome hunting stories from even when before I was born, when things were actually good. But I think your arguments and reasoning would be much more powerful (and likely taken much more seriously) if your approach was slightly different.

X2 on the thank you I’ve been thinking a lot today about how this would be viewed if I worked for that agency and i hope I haven’t put anything out that makes them wanna slam the door in my face

 

[BuzzH]

Would you please point out where I said that the average commissioner is more qualified and you’re not?

I don’t think you blast wildlife, but I do think you’re pretty adept at blasting wildlife professionals, who, even if one disagrees with their methods or recommendations, don’t deserve to be trashed online or characterized as gaslighters, or of thinking “what they have now is the ‘best’ they’ve ever seen” (particularly when they write reports that literally say things like, “XX% below long-term average”). I highly doubt that field-staff at FWP wake up in the morning trying to decide who they’re going to bamboozle, or consciously want there to be no more public land elk or 4.5-year old mule deer. Unless of course as part of “giving things thought and trying to understand” you’ve had conversations (with an adequate sample of biologists of course) that have revealed such. If so, my apologies.

Perhaps instead of Gandhi, I should have used the “man in the arena” quote, and I say this knowing full well you have a history of being in the arena on complex and challenging wildlife conservation and public access issues. For that, thank you. Really. I also know a whole slew of FWP biologists that are “in the arena” trying to conserve and manage the resource appropriately, improve private land access, etc., regardless of the disconnect between what/how they do and how it’s perceived. From that history and your background, I’d hope you’d understand a little bit more about the depth and breadth in complexity and challenges that wildlife management and public service is growing into in MT. I won’t rehash all the issues, there’s 130+ pages of that here and elsewhere. What I get from your posts is that no matter what, FWP has all the wrong answers and you have all the right ones, and in your current role as a member of the public advocating for what you want (and thank you for that, too), FWP is so lost, and so corrupt(?), there needs to be a complete do-over. So, get in there and fix it, show them how it’s done, and deal with all the other sides of the public, too. If you don’t think that the current biologists and managers care about the health of the resource, be that change. I’d also like to be a fly on the wall when you try to tell that to said biologist or manager.

If you’d rather take management into your own hands by tossing two pronghorn tags a year, more power to you. I’ll cross my fingers those same two antelope aren’t harvested by someone else or otherwise killed/starved/eaten later on.

Criminy, the last 10 pages or more of this is criticizing FWP for not adequately managing mule deer, and here they are, after revamping AHM in 2021, reopening and completely redoing the entire state management plan for mule deer, again, less than four years later, largely due to public desire to see such (and absolutely yes, a need for it too). In this instance, FWP is literally doing what I feel like the purpose of this thread was initially for — to examine and revise mule deer management in Montana. It’s still going to be a long road ahead but isn’t that in itself kind of a win?

I think it’s great that you’re passionate Buzz, and holy cow I’d love to sit down and hear some undoubtedly awesome hunting stories from even when before I was born, when things were actually good. But I think your arguments and reasoning would be much more powerful (and likely taken much more seriously) if your approach was slightly different.

I couldn't care less about old hunting stories, I'm more concerned about having someone listen to why mule deer hunting sucks in Montana and how we got here.

I have a good idea why and there is a systematic failure of anyone trying to address or fix it.

The house is on fire and most are worried about rearranging the furniture.

Probably one of the big differences I see between Wyoming and Montana is the bios down here change things. Season dates, raise and lower quotas, shorten seasons, APRs for short times, and they do it yearly. Doesn't all work, hell I don't agree with all of it, but it is active management and I appreciate that.

I can tell you for 100% certainty, there is no way, no way in hell that a Wyoming biologist would do nothing about an elk area with single digit bull to cow ratios and 8 observed elk on a flight survey.

Perhaps I'm expecting too much that something should/needs to change in that scenario.

I'll just remain like the average hunter in Montana, put all my faith in the fact that since the biologists aren't recommending anything different I'm good to go. I'll ignore their data or better yet not even bother to read it or think about it. You point it out, you're just a goddamn bully and the excuses fly. It's not MY data, it's the fwp's data. Why am I the bad guy that points out it's a little strange that you kill more bull elk than your data suggests exist in a unit?

Shoot what's left and call it good I reckon...that I can do.

Frankly, not really sure why I care when a majority don't.

All that said the best deer proposal I've seen is the one put together by antlerradar, Randy Hodges, Gerald and the rest of that group.

Too bad it's getting almost no traction.

Pretty good chance I'll never see anything but 12 weeks of "if it's brown it's down in Montana with OTC tags". Been that way since 1979 when I bought my first OTC tags...46 years this fall. Been that way since 1957 when my Dad first hunted Montana at age 12.

 

[Forkyfinder]

One things for sure - if i was a bio reading this shit id for sure not comment and id probably not sign in to read it again.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Too bad it's getting almost no traction.

I wouldnt say that.

Ha - there was a legislative reaction to it

Its firing people up and getting them talking. Has to start there

 

[cgasner1]

I wouldnt say that.

Ha - there was a legislative reaction to it

Its firing people up and getting them talking. Has to start there

As lil Wayne would say real g’s move in silence like lasagna… 139 was a scare and shows that we are gaining traction

 

[DFS]

One things for sure - if i was a bio reading this shit id for sure not comment and id probably not sign in to read it again.

I don’t have anywhere close to as much experience as buzz but he isn’t wrong. I have went to season settings for the last 15 years, the staff lectures you on how buck size hasn’t changed, the animals didn’t die they just migrated. Bad winters, bad droughts, habitat changes. Not once do they look in the mirror at their management. There is a ton of knowledge that is being ignored. They tell you what you’re seeing isn’t real and have a very arrogant attitude while doing it. Hell they didn’t even support private land only doe tags. People have been going to meeting and raising the alarms for a long time. If you read public comment most of those are sounding the alarms, all of it is ignored by MTFWP.

 

[BuzzH]

I wouldnt say that.

Ha - there was a legislative reaction to it

Its firing people up and getting them talking. Has to start there

I've been fired up and talking about it since the late 80's early 90's, the beginning of the end.

 

[BuzzH]

I don’t have anywhere close to as much experience as buzz but he isn’t wrong. I have went to season settings for the last 15 years, the staff lectures you on how buck size hasn’t changed, the animals didn’t die they just migrated. Bad winters, bad droughts, habitat changes. Not once do they look in the mirror at their management. There is a ton of knowledge that is being ignored. They tell you what you’re seeing isn’t real and have a very arrogant attitude while doing it. Hell they didn’t even support private land only doe tags. People have been going to meeting and raising the alarms for a long time. If you read public comment most of those are sounding the alarms, all of it is ignored by MTFWP.

I've been told I just don't hunt hard enough...ok.

 

[BuzzH]

One things for sure - if i was a bio reading this shit id for sure not comment and id probably not sign in to read it again.

About like the publics written comments, what's new?

 

[DFS]

I've been told I just don't hunt hard enough...ok.

“They aren’t into knee jerk reactions” that was a favorite of mine. But they sure as hell poured the coals to the mule deer does long before they had recovered after bad winters. I think it takes a FOIA request to get your hands on their flight count data, it makes you wonder what they are hiding.

 

[El Jason]

I think it takes a FOIA request to get your hands on their flight count data, it makes you wonder what they are hiding.

Just because you have to file a FOIA for something doesn’t mean anything is being hidden.

 

[El Jason]

Pretty good chance I'll never see anything but 12 weeks of "if it's brown it's down in Montana with OTC tags". Been that way since 1979 when I bought my first OTC tags...46 years this fall. Been that way since 1957 when my Dad first hunted Montana at age 12.

At the end of the day, this truly is the pink elephant in the room.

 

[DFS]

Region 7 Cwd dataset to 2023. Should be a more current data with 2024 data included that someone should reach out and get. Ignore my chicken scratchings. Interested to hear people’s thoughts.

This data is very interesting, it makes me wonder if a 5 week rut hunt where you can be extremely selective isn’t the best way to target the older age class bucks. People are shooting the younger bucks with good genetics and that is allowing the older undesirable bucks to live longer. Or it’s sample bias.

 

[Nameless Range]

I have seen biologists in Montana try to make changes in the right direction - only to be hammered by the Directors Office or denied by the commission. I can only speak to the few I know and don’t pretend to understand the pulse of most.

That said there are some that would like to do good things, but won’t touch a lot of the good ideas regarding mule deer/elk management in Montana with a 10 foot pole because they know those ideas don’t have a chance in hell in terms of executive sponsorship.

 

[Gerald Martin]

I wouldnt say that.

Ha - there was a legislative reaction to it

Its firing people up and getting them talking. Has to start there

Sad state of affairs when the “opportunity” mentality is so ingrained in hunters
that a legislator who is a hunter and a taxidermist introduces legislation to block efforts to improve the resource and help maintain sustainable opportunity.

The biggest barrier to better management in MT is hunters. The department has the scientific wherewithal to get us to a better place. They just need the direction from hunters and leadership to define what that better place is.

In WY the better place has been defined as prioritizing the resource above opportunity to hunt OTC every year and biologists manage to that end even if they get flack from some hunters as they make changes to achieve their mandate.

In MT, that “better” has been defined by placing a higher value on ensuring hunters get to maintain season and license opportunity even if the resource is stressed in the process. Maintaining a constant amount of opportunity while the resource peaks and valleys means the valleys last longer than they would if “opportunity” was proportional to the surplus of the resource.

 

[Gerald Martin]

At the end of the day, this truly is the pink elephant in the room.

Ooh!!! A pink elephant! Let’s make a hunting season for it!

 

[Elky Welky]

Sad state of affairs when the “opportunity” mentality is so ingrained in hunters
that a legislator who is a hunter and a taxidermist introduces legislation to block efforts to improve the resource and help maintain sustainable opportunity.

Rep Hinkle is a born and raised Montanan. There are few things that make native Montanans more angry than people who move here and start acting like and telling us "they know best." It shows a deep ignorance and disrespect for who we are and what we believe. It's been a repeating loop our whole lives, from the influx of Hollywood types to this new wave of Bozeman area hunters and tech bros. That's what's truly the sad state of affairs.

That will never get anyone anywhere, and you can bet there will be even more resistance if you are going to be that boldly arrogant.

If you want to make changes to mule deer season in Montana, stop complaining about the past. It isn't coming back. Stop treating the locals like we don't know our own state. Stop telling us hunting is bad here because you have different expectations of what it should be. Stop attacking anyone who asks questions or wants to help but isn't as aware of this small but loud group on this forum that is so incredibly dissatisfied.

Work with Montanans. Show them that though they are content, things could be better. Reach across the aisle. Respect the hard working staff at FWP. Acknowledge that draught and disease are just as culpable in the issues with our mule deer herd. Make incremental changes driven by data. Join a conservation org and go do a fence pull and meet more people.

But don't come here and throw a hand grenade in how things have been and somehow expect Montanans to bow down and thank you.

 

[El Jason]

Clearly, the glory days are ahead.

 

[cgasner1]

Rep Hinkle is a born and raised Montanan. There are few things that make native Montanans more angry than people who move here and start acting like and telling us "they know best." It shows a deep ignorance and disrespect for who we are and what we believe. It's been a repeating loop our whole lives, from the influx of Hollywood types to this new wave of Bozeman area hunters and tech bros. That's what's truly the sad state of affairs.

That will never get anyone anywhere, and you can bet there will be even more resistance if you are going to be that boldly arrogant.

If you want to make changes to mule deer season in Montana, stop complaining about the past. It isn't coming back. Stop treating the locals like we don't know our own state. Stop telling us hunting is bad here because you have different expectations of what it should be. Stop attacking anyone who asks questions or wants to help but isn't as aware of this small but loud group on this forum that is so incredibly dissatisfied.

Work with Montanans. Show them that though they are content, things could be better. Reach across the aisle. Respect the hard working staff at FWP. Acknowledge that draught and disease are just as culpable in the issues with our mule deer herd. Make incremental changes driven by data. Join a conservation org and go do a fence pull and meet more people.

But don't come here and throw a hand grenade in how things have been and somehow expect Montanans to bow down and thank you.

So when do I get considered a Montana? I’ve lived here my entire adult life? I sure didn’t set out to change things when I moved
here. Where I grew up the hunting has gone to absolute shit I’d really prefer to not see it happen to another state. I’m far from talking about the good ol days I’d just like to see the clock rewound about 10 years