Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[8andcounting]

Those aren’t points im making. They are points being brought up in the podcast. They are the ones that conceded my because I don’t agree with them

Ok . Yeh I listened to it also and do not agree with them either

 

[Gerald Martin]

I understand the point that we can’t maintain the number of deer at their population peak because of the habitat.

However, we don’t have anything near maximum carrying capacity in almost all units in MT. In units that may be close to carrying capacity (if any), those would be prime areas to work on improving buck/doe ratios instead of being happy with single digit post season buck/doe counts and being thrilled that we can kill 90% of the bucks in a local herd every year and still have does get pregnant.

Mature bucks as defined by FWP is male deer of breeding age, i.e 1 1/2 years or older.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I understand the point that we can’t maintain the number of deer at their population peak because of the habitat.

However, we don’t have anything near maximum carrying capacity in almost all units in MT. In units that may be close to carrying capacity (if any), those would be prime areas to work on improving buck/doe ratios instead of being happy with single digit post season buck/doe counts and being thrilled that we can kill 90% of the bucks in a local herd every year and still have does get pregnant.

Mature bucks as defined by FWP is male deer of breeding age, i.e 1 1/2 years or older.

Whatd you make of the median buck harvested being over 4.5 and over 60% 4 point or better in r6/r7?

 

[Nick87]

Whatd you make of the median buck harvested being over 4.5 and over 60% 4 point or better in r6/r7?

Private property?

 

[DFS]

Whatd you make of the median buck harvested being over 4.5 and over 60% 4 point or better in r6/r7?

I think you have to dig into the techniques of how they are getting that info

 

[Forkyfinder]

Private property?

I wouldnt think so actually.

Hard to imagine that being a significant enough of a percentage of surveyed hunters have exclusive private access.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I think you have to dig into the techniques of how they are getting that info

Its the random phone calls. I thought.

 

[Nick87]

I wouldnt think so actually.

Hard to imagine that being a significant enough of a percentage of surveyed hunters have exclusive private access.

Depends on who they do or don't survey. Lots of coincidental conveniences in data collecting if all types.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Whatd you make of the median buck harvested being over 4.5 and over 60% 4 point or better in r6/r7?

I’ll preface my remarks with the fact that I haven’t listened to the podcast yet. With that said….

I’m skeptical that the median buck harvest is 4.5 years old. Are they saying that 50% of all bucks harvested are older than 4.5 years???? I call BS. I would want to see some proof of that statistic in the form of cementum aging with documentation rather than check station estimates.

Many bucks can be 4xsomething at 2 1/2 and any buck with the genetic potential to ever be 4xsomethingwill certainly express that by 3 1/2.

Is there any additional information on whether that 4 point count is inclusive of a brow tine or exclusive?

I’m assuming they’re counting any buck with 4 antler points longer than 1” on one side as a 4x?

 

[Rie Bread]

Depends on who they do or don't survey. Lots of coincidental conveniences in data collecting if all types.

One button is tricky enough on the e tag

 

[rogerthat]

Private property?

The age data actually breaks out public and private harvest. I wish I had the data in front of me but the difference between public and private harvest was very minimal. I will post it up when I get some time and remember.

 

[rogerthat]

I’ll preface my remarks with the fact that I haven’t listened to the podcast yet. With that said….

I’m skeptical that the median buck harvest is 4.5 years old. Are they saying that 50% of all bucks harvested are older than 4.5 years???? I call BS. I would want to see some proof of that statistic in the form of cementum aging with documentation rather than check station estimates.

Many bucks can be 4xsomething at 2 1/2 and any buck with the genetic potential to ever be 4xsomethingwill certainly express that by 3 1/2.

Is there any additional information on whether that 4 point count is inclusive of a brow tine or exclusive?

I’m assuming they’re counting any buck with 4 antler points longer than 1” on one side as a 4x?

The age data is cementum annuli (lab aging) and the average is what forky said and slightly less but I mean slightly on public land in region 7 for the data I have. You got a tough argument ahead of you. My exact thoughts when I got my hands on the data 3 months ago or so

 

[cgasner1]

I’ll preface my remarks with the fact that I haven’t listened to the podcast yet. With that said….

I’m skeptical that the median buck harvest is 4.5 years old. Are they saying that 50% of all bucks harvested are older than 4.5 years???? I call BS. I would want to see some proof of that statistic in the form of cementum aging with documentation rather than check station estimates.

Many bucks can be 4xsomething at 2 1/2 and any buck with the genetic potential to ever be 4xsomethingwill certainly express that by 3 1/2.

Is there any additional information on whether that 4 point count is inclusive of a brow tine or exclusive?

I’m assuming they’re counting any buck with 4 antler points longer than 1” on one side as a 4x?

My best buck was 3.5 years old at 187” I bet most people don’t realize how quick a buck can be a 4x4

 

[Gerald Martin]

MT FWP’s definition of 4x or better.

MT hunters’ idea of 4 point or better.

 

[INMT]

One button is tricky enough on the e tag

Troglodytes

 

[Gerald Martin]

The age data is cementum annuli (lab aging) and the average is what forky said and slightly less but I mean slightly on public land in region 7 for the data I have. You got a tough argument ahead of you. My exact thoughts when I got my hands on the data 3 months ago or so

Did they give any links or information to their documentation? I’m having a tough time accepting the accuracy of that claim based on both personal observation of what I have seen as an average harvest and in the field sightings of bucks while hunting.

 

[DFS]

MT FWP’s definition of 4x or better.View attachment 370283View attachment 370284View attachment 370285View attachment 370286

MT hunters’ idea of 4 point or better.
View attachment 370287View attachment 370288View attachment 370289View attachment 370290

Technically only 39% of us. According to their biased survey. They are 2 steps ahead of us with their useless data.

 

[rogerthat]

Did they give any links or information to their documentation? I’m having a tough time accepting the accuracy of that claim based on both personal observation of what I have seen as an average harvest and in the field sightings of bucks while hunting.

You aren’t alone. I just got the rough data set and a verbal explanation of how it was sampled. I was lucky to be privy to the battle of the bios. Let’s just say MT FWP is still undefeated. They are going to hang their hat hard on this data. I’m really surprised you guys don’t have it yet.

 

[INMT]

Did they give any links or information to their documentation? I’m having a tough time accepting the accuracy of that claim based on both personal observation of what I have seen as an average harvest and in the field sightings of bucks while hunting.

Not arguing with you, but what are your methods of aging from “personal observation of what I have seen as an average harvest and in the field sightings of bucks while hunting.”

 

[cgasner1]

MT FWP’s definition of 4x or better.View attachment 370283View attachment 370284View attachment 370285View attachment 370286

MT hunters’ idea of 4 point or better.
View attachment 370287View attachment 370288View attachment 370289View attachment 370290

You figure out that chatbot thing ?