Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[corndog1]

Out in the 700s last weekend waterfowl hunting and saw a few trucks with some two points in them. Overheard one group from Washington discussing where they were gonna go to fill the doe tags. Two points and does? come on. Should be two points and hoes

 

[rogerthat]

Private land only doe tags seems like an elementary step. I was told they are all the same deer and there is no reason to do that.

So even if that were true and they are all the same deer, would it not still be a good move to try and improve distribution? If your going to have a hunt held in the middle of the rut than lands with no does will have no bucks. It still seems like a no brainer to me. Approximately 30% of the lands in region 7 are public yet I bet greater than 60% (could be way higher) of the hunters hunt those lands. Why not do what you can for the majority of hunters?

 

[DFS]

So even if that were true and they are all the same deer, would it not still be a good move to try and improve distribution? If your going to have a hunt held in the middle of the rut than lands with no does will have no bucks. It still seems like a no brainer to me. Approximately 30% of the lands in region 7 are public yet I bet greater than 60% (could be way higher) of the hunters hunt those lands. Why not do what you can for the majority of hunters?

They aren’t the same deer in many areas. Private land doe tags would have a positive impact. Especially if fwp would target deer on private landowners that feel they have too many deer. With the population crash they would be justified to offer no doe tags. Somewhere in Wanderwomans post she mentioned numbers were starting to come back. 11k doe tags were issued when they were just starting to come back. It may not mean much to fwp but I can show you lots of areas where mule deer does should not be harvested and that is where you are seeing them get shot because that is where the majority of the hunting pressure is. You can blame climate change, drought, winter, habitat but at the end of the day protected private land holds more deer than accessible land. It is not hard to see what the difference is. We aren’t looking for solutions to anything as we plow forward.

 

[sclancy27]

17 deer tonight, 3 bucks. 3x3, two 4x4 with eyeguards. One was really nice on his passenger side, crabby on his driver side, heavy horned mature deer. All lived.

 

[antlerradar]

Last night I went from Otter creek to Tongue River. Didn't see any deer, but I wasn't expecting to. This morning I went farther west. Three bucks on Tie Creek, one was real nice. Not all that surprising any more, twenty years ago it would have been shocking.

 

[antlerradar]

As @sclancy27 said, fire does wonders for mule deer (provided it’s not too severe) but generally that starts to ebb 3-5 years post-fire (hmm right around the time we had a flash drought in 2017 followed by one of the worse winters we’ve had in 2017-18, followed by droughts in 2020, 2021, 2022… in my neck of the woods there has also been a grasshopper siege occurring since 2019. So when deer were finally starting to bounce back after winter 2010-11, they got hit by 17-18 and then have been getting hammered by drought since. There’s cumulative effects (e.g., weather, habitat, predation/hunting) and lag effects (e.g., Where are the 5 and 6 year old bucks? They died as fawns or weren’t born in 2017 and 2018) all interacting to affect populations and what we see (or in today’s case, don’t see) out there.

I don't disagree that all of this is having and effect on the mule deer population. However there is more to our current low numbers then just a bad stretch of weather. Lets compare the last decade to when I first started hunting in the late 70's. The winter of 77/78 was kind of rough. The winter of 78/79 was far worse. It started snowing on Nov. 10th and soon there was two feet on the ground. That snow and a whole lot more was still with us well into April. The road to Sheridan WY got so bad that the county could not keep it passable with road graders and Vplows. The road was passable only when Decker Coal pushed it open with D8 cats. Even then it was like driving in a deep canyon of snow and as soon as the wind blew it was impassable for weeks. The winter of 78/79 is the one you don't forget. Much worst that 10/11 and 17/18. What made 78/79 so bad was not just the amount of snow, but the length. I remember hiking in 17/18 the first part of Feb, the south faces had little snow the north side maybe 6 inches. Winter got ugly after that. In 78/79 winter was ugly two weeks into Nov and it stayed that way well into April. The winter kill in 78/79 was devastating, likely on par with what SW WY experienced last year. I can also remember a spring storm in April of 84 that dumped four feet of snow and dropped temperatures below zero. Another time there was a cold snap right before Christmas. Our thermometer hit -48, a neighbor had -55. That cold snap lasted for days. Tough winters are nothing new in Montana.
The 80's where not exactly wet years. I would say that the 80's were the driest decade I can remember. Twenty two was a good year for us. Twenty and 21 were bad. We never had back to back years like them in the 80's, but 88 was just as bad if not worse that ether of those two years. There was almost zero new growth in 88. One of the best years I ever had looking for antlers. The reason it was so good. There the same amount of plant growth to hid antlers May through December as there was in March and April. Almost none. For most of the 80's and into the early 90's Hanging Woman Creek dried up in the summer. My grandmother said it was the first she saw the creek dry up, even in the 30 she kept running a trickle. Never even came close to drying up in 20, 21 or 22. I would characterize the 80's as mostly dry with a few good years. The last decade has been mostly good years with a few very dry years.
Grasshoppers are nothing new. Several years in the 80's had lots of grasshoppers. Eighty six was epic. The hoppers ate everything, on par with the worst year of the last decade.
The point is, tough winters, drought and grasshopper are nothing new in Montana, The last decade was nothing out of the ordinary and certainly not extraordinary. As for the hunting in the 80's, I can compare it to with the last decade too, but this post is long enough, so lets just say the public land hunting of the last decade is a paper thin shell of what it was in the 80's.

 

[antlerradar]

A doe’s nutrition affects pregnancy rates, gestation, birth weight, fawn survival, and as research has suggested a buck’s antler growth potential, and nutrition has been subpar across much of MT (except urban backyards, gardens, and ag fields) for several years at least. It’s great that this year is looking phenomenal but a turnaround in terms of mule deer populations will take multiple years of good conditions. And I’m not really holding my breath that we’ll get that given what the last decade or more has been (almost let “climate change” slip there). This is not an excuse to not manage, but it’s a constraint on how even the best management may not take hold for a while.

Lets compare the habitat on the Custer of the last decade to when I first started hunting in the late 70's through the eighty's.
Livestock grazing has been permanently cut by 5,000 animal units and during the drought year of 2021 temperately cut by 40%. The eighty's and early nineties were the driest years I can remember. Creeks and springs were drying up, Irrigation water was in short supply. I think it was 91 when we were unable to fill Tongue river reservoir. We were told by much smarter people than me that it was going to be the new normal. They were wrong. Haven't had an issue with filling the reservoir since. This year we are having a hard time getting the lake level down to winter level. Even though the 80's and early 90's were dry, I don't remember any substantial grazing cuts. There probably should have been.

Two thirds of the forest has burned since 2000. Much of that has burned more than once. I understand that forbes and scrub production starts to ebb 3-5 years after the fire, but I am going to bet that that production is still much better in a landscape 10 and even 20 years after the fire then in a landscape that has not burned in many decades. The vast majority of the land on the Custer in the 80's had not burned in half a century. The truth is the habitat on the Custer has never looked better in my life time. Even the recent drought years were not all that bad. Kind of a big flash in the pan. The deer hunting has never been worse. Habitat is not the issue on the Custer in my opinion. I could be wrong and the habitat has been declining. If this is so, how can we justify hunting the Custer and Mule Deer even harder than we did in the 80's. In the 80's there was no doe tags on the Custer. It was for the most part fill your A tag and you were hunting birds for the rest of the year. Now not only do we still have OTC A tags, we have up to 11,000 region wide mule deer doe tags, whitetail doe tags, archery elk tags, rife bull elk tags and cow tags. In the 80's hunting was for the most part confined to five weeks. Archery pressure on deer was almost zero. Now we have added an extra day on rifle season, a two day youth season, a 9 day smokepole season and archery elk season is almost as busy as rifle season. It all adds up to a lot more pressure. Is there any wonder deer are not staying on the Public Land.

 

[Bulldog0156]

The truth is the habitat on the Custer has never looked better in my life time.

Curious, how are the weeds in the burned areas? I hunted the Custer after the 2012 Ash Creek fire and the weeds were 5' high where the cows hadn't trampled them. Could have been a bunch of dried sweet clover too as I recall some pretty crunchy stuff. We ended up pulling camp and heading closer to home.

 

[antlerradar]

I was up there this summer, Most of the annual weeds died down and have been replaced grass and shrubs. The sweet clover this year was epic. Six feet tall in may places and still blooming into September.

 

[cgasner1]

I saw about 20 deer yesterday and 4 bucks no animals where harmed and my rifle stayed in the pack

 

[sclancy27]

22 deer this morning, 3 bucks. 2 dinks and a 3x4 with eyeguards.

 

[huntin24/7]

I was up there this summer, Most of the annual weeds died down and have been replaced grass and shrubs. The sweet clover this year was epic. Six feet tall in may places and still blooming into September.

Will the muleys use those big sweet clover blooms much for cover/food?

 

[sclancy27]

Will the muleys use those big sweet clover blooms much for cover/food?

They will until they dry out.

 

[DFS]

Sexually “mature” buck. I know this because I just watched him breed a doe. I would be willing to sell way points if any of the Washington guys are interested. I suspect that’s how the facebook page works.

 

[DFS]

I will not guarantee that he’s legal but I suspect he’s at least 3 1/2 and likely to not make the winter.

 

[Big Fin]

Friend shot a MT buck over the weekend. Looking at the antlers, light frame, barely a 4x3, no eye guards, and about 23” wide, I was guessing 3.5 years old. Then I was sent this picture asking if Matson’s can age one without lower incisors.


This has nothing to do with Montana mule deer management, rather once again confirming how faked out I can be at judging age of live and dead bucks based on antlers and frame.

I hope we can find a way for Matson’s to age this buck without lower incisors. He was taken on a heavily hunted area of public land.

Maybe he was always passed on because of his slight frame and that’s why he lived to this age on heavily hunted ground. Or, maybe he’s just that close to the end and it is all he could grow at this age. Either way, I suspect that the many rut cycles he went through he has plenty of offspring bouncing around.

Another reason I would be more interested in a management structure that aged dead bucks than a structure based on antler features/size/configuration of dead bucks. Seems that could be very revealing.

 

[DFS]

Friend shot a MT buck over the weekend. Looking at the antlers, light frame, barely a 4x3, no eye guards, and about 23” wide, I was guessing 3.5 years old. Then I was sent this picture asking if Matson’s can age one without lower incisors.
View attachment 301397

This has nothing to do with Montana mule deer management, rather once again confirming how faked out I can be at judging age of live and dead bucks based on antlers and frame.

I hope we can find a way for Matson’s to age this buck without lower incisors. He was taken on a heavily hunted area of public land.

Maybe he was always passed on because of his slight frame and that’s why he lived to this age on heavily hunted ground. Or, maybe he’s just that close to the end and it is all he could grow at this age. Either way, I suspect that the many rut cycles he went through he has plenty of offspring bouncing around.

Another reason I would be more interested in a management structure that aged dead bucks than a structure based on antler features/size/configuration of dead bucks. Seems that could be very revealing.

I would bet many of the bucks with undesirable antlers used to die of old age. Maybe less now but still some.

 

[TheTone]

Friend shot a MT buck over the weekend. Looking at the antlers, light frame, barely a 4x3, no eye guards, and about 23” wide, I was guessing 3.5 years old. Then I was sent this picture asking if Matson’s can age one without lower incisors.
View attachment 301397

This has nothing to do with Montana mule deer management, rather once again confirming how faked out I can be at judging age of live and dead bucks based on antlers and frame.

I hope we can find a way for Matson’s to age this buck without lower incisors. He was taken on a heavily hunted area of public land.

Maybe he was always passed on because of his slight frame and that’s why he lived to this age on heavily hunted ground. Or, maybe he’s just that close to the end and it is all he could grow at this age. Either way, I suspect that the many rut cycles he went through he has plenty of offspring bouncing around.

Another reason I would be more interested in a management structure that aged dead bucks than a structure based on antler features/size/configuration of dead bucks. Seems that could be very revealing.

I’m not an aging expert but the other incisors are still pretty tall, I’d be curious what the tops and wear on them looks like. Ones I have observed as being truly old had all incisors worn much closer to the gums

 

[Bambistew]

Friend shot a MT buck over the weekend. Looking at the antlers, light frame, barely a 4x3, no eye guards, and about 23” wide, I was guessing 3.5 years old. Then I was sent this picture asking if Matson’s can age one without lower incisors.
View attachment 301397

This has nothing to do with Montana mule deer management, rather once again confirming how faked out I can be at judging age of live and dead bucks based on antlers and frame.

I hope we can find a way for Matson’s to age this buck without lower incisors. He was taken on a heavily hunted area of public land.

Maybe he was always passed on because of his slight frame and that’s why he lived to this age on heavily hunted ground. Or, maybe he’s just that close to the end and it is all he could grow at this age. Either way, I suspect that the many rut cycles he went through he has plenty of offspring bouncing around.

Another reason I would be more interested in a management structure that aged dead bucks than a structure based on antler features/size/configuration of dead bucks. Seems that could be very revealing.

Agreed. Missing teeth doesn't mean old and looking at antlers doesn't mean we know their age 100% of the time. What did the molars look like?

Selection of bucks based on antlers will result in a bunch of passed over dinks, or so the QDM guys say.

I was thinking a trophy fee paid by age class of buck mandatory reporting and aging. The trophy fee goes down as the buck gets older.

Guys just can't help themselves sometimes but maybe paying extra to shoot a yearling would make them think twice about that $10/lb deer steak?

 

[SAJ-99]

Out in the 700s last weekend waterfowl hunting and saw a few trucks with some two points in them. Overheard one group from Washington discussing where they were gonna go to fill the doe tags. Two points and does? come on. Should be two points and hoes

For the record, it wasn't me. Shooting a doe is simply giving yourself dirty work. I'm not a fan of the gutt'en and gill'en and the taste of deer doesn't excite me. Cow elk is worth it. Deer? Meh.