Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[mtmuley]

But it does tell where the effort should be focused. Stop trying to solve everything everywhere. Maybe focus on a few high quality units in the east?

Or maybe on the whole State unit by unit? Certainly not very popular, but if you give a shit about mule deer something to think about. Can't solve the problem Statewide by trying to solve the problem Statewide. mtmuley

 

[DFS]

It actually kinda pisses me off that when you bring this up everyone acts like we all wanna kill 170” deer every year. I’d just rather not see a pile of 120-130” killed over thanksgiving because someone spent the money on a tank of fuel

I’ve literally hit a decent mule deer with a rock in mid November. I think peoples hunts would be just as enjoyable in October especially if they are just happy to shoot a buck. Probably help with Cwd management as well because people would shoot the more undesirable older bucks if they came across one.

But it does tell where the effort should be focused. Stop trying to solve everything everywhere. Maybe focus on a few high quality units in the east?

Eastern Montana has and can provide a pile of opportunity for hunters. If managed correctly changing the season dates and keeping hunters in the field is what makes the most sense to me. Doe tags for private land only.

 

[DFS]

Or maybe on the whole State unit by unit? Certainly not very popular, but if you give a shit about mule deer something to think about. Can't solve the problem Statewide by trying to solve the problem Statewide. mtmuley

Hundreds of ways to make it better. Yet we plow forward with the “best management in the west”

 

[Elky Welky]

I can give you more of a biography if you want over pm but I have spent the last 25 years hunting a sheet load all over Montana. 25 years ago I hunted primarily around Butte, Montana spent some time in the northwest corner of the state, the Bridger mountains, way down along the state line to the south of Butte. I occasionally go back to these areas. For the last decade and a half primarily eastern and central Montana. I’m not aware of an area for mule deer that is better than it was 20 years ago in the state are you?

"Better" is subjective. Are we talking numbers? Size? Buck to doe Ratios? Lack of CWD? Pressure? Habitat? Access?

I'm really just playing a bit of devil's advocate here... I've found this to be one heck of a hornets nest to poke (see the comment above about people getting run off this thread). But do want to assure you @rogerthat that I wasn't calling your experience out specifically. Mine is quite similar.

But sometimes this thread seems to be about having our cake and eating it too: is Montana an opportunity state? Or are we managing for trophy class? How mad should we be at the nonresident or kid who gets to shoot their very first mule deer, even if it is a forky during the rut? What about someone who can't get out much and likes to fill their freezer with doe meat; are they truly villains? Should every drainage have its own season and biologist managing it, and regulations and rules that change every year? Or should our regulations be more streamlined statewide? Since things are different in my neck of the woods does that make it everyone's problem?

 

[El Jason]

Eastern Montana has and can provide a pile of opportunity for hunters. If managed correctly changing the season dates and keeping hunters in the field is what makes the most sense to me. Doe tags for private land only.

This. A statewide blueprint is stupid.

It’s also stupid to create LE units if folks can apply for them and still hunt general if they don’t draw. Make folks have a little skin on the game and commit to where they want to hunt.

There is a lot of habitat that can provide a lot of opportunity and trophy quality if a little management was applied.

 

[DFS]

"Better" is subjective. Are we talking numbers? Size? Buck to doe Ratios? Lack of CWD? Pressure? Habitat? Access?

I'm really just playing a bit of devil's advocate here... I've found this to be one heck of a hornets nest to poke (see the comment above about people getting run off this thread). But do want to assure you @rogerthat that I wasn't calling your experience out specifically. Mine is quite similar.

But sometimes this thread seems to be about having our cake and eating it too: is Montana an opportunity state? Or are we managing for trophy class? How mad should we be at the nonresident or kid who gets to shoot their very first mule deer, even if it is a forky during the rut? What about someone who can't get out much and likes to fill their freezer with doe meat; are they truly villains? Should every drainage have its own season and biologist managing it, and regulations and rules that change every year? Or should our regulations be more streamlined statewide? Since things are different in my neck of the woods does that make it everyone's problem?

The deer are disappearing from the landscape it’s that simple. Especially on public land. why is that? I get to peruse over some big private land ranches and yes the drought took its toll the winters will do the same but it is night and day difference to accessible lands. Something is different on the accessible areas but I just can’t put my finger on it. Maybe you can help?

 

[JMos3]

But sometimes this thread seems to be about having our cake and eating it too: is Montana an opportunity state? Or are we managing for trophy class? How mad should we be at the nonresident or kid who gets to shoot their very first mule deer, even if it is a forky during the rut? What about someone who can't get out much and likes to fill their freezer with doe meat; are they truly villains? Should every drainage have its own season and biologist managing it, and regulations and rules that change every year? Or should our regulations be more streamlined statewide? Since things are different in my neck of the woods does that make it everyone's problem?

This is a statement I hear regularly and to be quite frank, it's ridiculous. There's a huge gap with a bunch of middle ground between the most liberal deer season in the country while still being able to provide a diverse age structure, better than 5-20:100 buck/doe ratios, and having healthy populations of deer on public land.

Nobody in this thread has vilified people for shooting a forky or a doe. In fact, there's been several of the most vocal people say that if FWP issues you the tag then go fill it.

As a long time lurker, I've found on this forum and in life, it's more valuable to listen first and talk second. There are posters on this thread that hunt mule deer annually across several states and they see the best mule deer habitat in the world right here at home largely void of a healthy mule deer population that is worse now than it was 5 years ago. 5 years ago was worse then it was 15 years ago, and so on down the line. That's easy to cast aside as anecdotal until you see the documentation that many posters in this thread can provide.

 

[El Jason]

Something is different on the accessible areas but I just can’t put my finger on it.

Lead poisoning?

 

[El Jason]

Nobody in this thread has vilified people for shooting a forky or a doe. In fact, there's been several of the most vocal people say that if FWP issues you the tag then go fill it.

With some decent population and hunter distribution management, shooting a forky isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It isn’t necessarily great to have all of your hunting pressure directed at one single portion of the age structure. Having that distributed across the age structure somewhat evenly is a good thing and easily achievable.

 

[DFS]

Lead poisoning?

Unfortunately that’s a variable I don’t think we will ever get to explore.

 

[SAJ-99]

Or maybe on the whole State unit by unit? Certainly not very popular, but if you give a shit about mule deer something to think about. Can't solve the problem Statewide by trying to solve the problem Statewide. mtmuley

Unfortunately we have to live in reality of what is possible. But every unit LE would be fine with me.

 

[mtmuley]

Unfortunately we have to live in reality of what is possible. But every unit LE would be fine with me.

I agree. Maybe not all units LE, but quite a few. Then not burn it down like the LE Breaks elk permits have. mtmuley

 

[SAJ-99]

This is a statement I hear regularly and to be quite frank, it's ridiculous. There's a huge gap with a bunch of middle ground between the most liberal deer season in the country while still being able to provide a diverse age structure, better than 5-20:100 buck/doe ratios, and having healthy populations of deer on public land.

Nobody in this thread has vilified people for shooting a forky or a doe. In fact, there's been several of the most vocal people say that if FWP issues you the tag then go fill it.

As a long time lurker, I've found on this forum and in life, it's more valuable to listen first and talk second. There are posters on this thread that hunt mule deer annually across several states and they see the best mule deer habitat in the world right here at home largely void of a healthy mule deer population that is worse now than it was 5 years ago. 5 years ago was worse then it was 15 years ago, and so on down the line. That's easy to cast aside as anecdotal until you see the documentation that many posters in this thread can provide.

Welcome to the forum. I could debate your points but it would be useless. Mule deer pops fluctuate a lot based on YTY conditions, but they could and should be better. How to balance that with the desire for opportunity is the core issue.

 

[rogerthat]

Lead poisoning?

Not if you use monos

 

[Elky Welky]

This is a statement I hear regularly and to be quite frank, it's ridiculous. There's a huge gap with a bunch of middle ground between the most liberal deer season in the country while still being able to provide a diverse age structure, better than 5-20:100 buck/doe ratios, and having healthy populations of deer on public land.

Nobody in this thread has vilified people for shooting a forky or a doe. In fact, there's been several of the most vocal people say that if FWP issues you the tag then go fill it.

As a long time lurker, I've found on this forum and in life, it's more valuable to listen first and talk second. There are posters on this thread that hunt mule deer annually across several states and they see the best mule deer habitat in the world right here at home largely void of a healthy mule deer population that is worse now than it was 5 years ago. 5 years ago was worse then it was 15 years ago, and so on down the line. That's easy to cast aside as anecdotal until you see the documentation that many posters in this thread can provide.

As I said in the part you didn't quote, this is quite the hornets nest, and--to be quite frank--it is sometimes fun to poke it, play devils advocate, and see who comes out of the pile. The hyperbole on both extremes was intentional, and I must say, certainly worked here.

To each their own, but I respectfully disagree with your findings on this forum and in life: I find it is more valuable to be involved, ask questions, keep an open mind, point out inconsistencies and hypocrisy, speak from experience, examine the evidence, let oneself be humbled, and in equal parts stand up for yourself.

I'll take my licks, but being told to sit down and shut up will never be for me.

 

[JMos3]

As I said in the part you didn't quote, this is quite the hornets nest, and--to be quite frank--it is sometimes fun to poke it, play devils advocate, and see who comes out of the pile. The hyperbole on both extremes was intentional, and I must say, certainly worked here.

To each their own, but I respectfully disagree with your findings on this forum and in life: I find it is more valuable to be involved, ask questions, keep an open mind, point out inconsistencies and hypocrisy, speak from experience, examine the evidence, let oneself be humbled, and in equal parts stand up for yourself.

I'll take my licks, but being told to sit down and shut up will never be for me.

Man, I don't know where to start. I've watched you argue with a poster on here that had decades worth of experience on the issue and because you had a few years as an attorney you thought you knew better than they did.

Like I said, listening and observing goes a long way. Go get em, tiger.

 

[DFS]

It is interesting, thanks @Elky Welky for the report of the Billings meeting. It seems the eastern Montana guys can see what is happening and are trying to make a stand to stop what is happening to our mule deer herd. This is what I have seen in the miles city meetings as well. I was surprised at the pushback from sportsman that @bigfin reported. Enlightening for sure.

 

[Elky Welky]

Man, I don't know where to start. I've watched you argue with a poster on here that had decades worth of experience on the issue and because you had a few years as an attorney you thought you knew better than they did.

Like I said, listening and observing goes a long way. Go get em, tiger.

Decades of experience as a lawyer? Practicing in that exact area of the law? I’m not gonna be bullied by anyone just because their sarcastic remarks get more likes. And, I also apologized for some of those comments. Tone is difficult to convey in text alone.

I’m not foolish enough to tell a brain surgeon I know more about their job. But apparently, on hunt talk, anyone can tell me how my job—which I went to school for ten years to do and have been practicing for seven years—works.

Am I entitled to tell you how yours does too?

We’re all on equal footing when it comes to hunting experience. But you bet your butt when @Nameless Range drops some data analysis, I’m gonna trust him, because that’s what he does for a living.

So yes; I’ll go get’m. Thanks. It’s what I do.

 

[huntin24/7]

"Better" is subjective. Are we talking numbers? Size? Buck to doe Ratios? Lack of CWD? Pressure? Habitat? Access?

I'm really just playing a bit of devil's advocate here... I've found this to be one heck of a hornets nest to poke (see the comment above about people getting run off this thread). But do want to assure you @rogerthat that I wasn't calling your experience out specifically. Mine is quite similar.

But sometimes this thread seems to be about having our cake and eating it too: is Montana an opportunity state? Or are we managing for trophy class? How mad should we be at the nonresident or kid who gets to shoot their very first mule deer, even if it is a forky during the rut? What about someone who can't get out much and likes to fill their freezer with doe meat; are they truly villains? Should every drainage have its own season and biologist managing it, and regulations and rules that change every year? Or should our regulations be more streamlined statewide? Since things are different in my neck of the woods does that make it everyone's problem?

The thing is, I think we can have our cake and eat it too to a large degree. You can have opportunity with a relatively long season. You can also have a few more older deer by slightly shorter seasons and moving them back a few weeks. Killing a mule deer isn’t very hard, so any opportunity with the rifle is reasonable whether it’s October or November. You can also combat cwd by targeting the higher populations of congregated deer with B tags on private land(maybe a season for private land B tags starting right after the general season?). The biggest point is that some quality and fair opportunity don’t have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[JMos3]

Decades of experience as a lawyer? Practicing in that exact area of the law? I’m not gonna be bullied by anyone just because their sarcastic remarks get more likes. And, I also apologized for some of those comments. Tone is difficult to convey in text alone.

I’m not foolish enough to tell a brain surgeon I know more about their job. But apparently, on hunt talk, anyone can tell me how my job—which I went to school for ten years to do and have been practicing for seven years—works.

Am I entitled to tell you how yours does too?

We’re all on equal footing when it comes to hunting experience. But you bet your butt when @Nameless Range drops some data analysis, I’m gonna trust him, because that’s what he does for a living.

So yes; I’ll go get’m. Thanks. It’s what I do.