Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement

[SAJ-99]

I haven't shot a mule deer buck yet, much less a good one. Guess it kinda proves your point even further.

The problem in eastern MT is not lack of deer, which can vary year to year, but hunting pressure, which doesn’t. The majority of residents don’t want to admit it. So youre mostly going to get responses about the glory days and how non-residents are the problem and anecdotal examples of some guys from ND shooting 7 does, etc. The problem is far more complicated than that. Western side of the state might have different problems, but in the East, the mule deer population will grow and age class will get better when they stop dying en mass of lead poisoning.

 

[DFS]

I haven't shot a mule deer buck yet, much less a good one. Guess it kinda proves your point even further.

I’m confused you had opportunities at a lot of nice bucks, middle aged bucks good three and 4 points. You were pleased with your hunt and you didn’t shoot one? Meanwhile I know people that haven’t shot a buck in 15 years or more, 9 years for me. And you say it’s the Mecca?

 

[Adamhuntingstuff]

I’m confused you had opportunities at a lot of nice bucks, middle aged bucks good three and 4 points. You were pleased with your hunt and you didn’t shoot one? Meanwhile I know people that haven’t shot a buck in 15 years or more, 9 years for me. And you say it’s the mecca?

I was pleased with the hunt even though we didn’t fill every possible tag. We had a great time and got a lot of practice in on how not to stalk mule deer.

Appreciate all of your insights though, buddy.

 

[antlerradar]

Thanks for the perspective. Id say 60% of what we saw was on public, but we also didn’t do much looking in areas that weren’t mostly public or block management.

I wish I could go back in time and see what it was like back before the 90s.

I didn't know how good I had it back in the 80's and even the 90's. With good conditions back then I could usually find a buck in the 170's in a day of hard hunting, 50 deer a day was also fairly common, but I must admit I never really kept track of deer numbers or 150 class bucks unless they were whitetails.
One of the best days went like this. One Friday I was hunting the Custer, it was snowing hard and deer were hard to find as they were hunkered down in the storm, but late in the after noon I had a wide buck with cheaters right below me. I thought he was one of two very big bucks I had seen in January so I shot him. He was not, still he is thirty one inches wide and nine scorable points per side, but thin antlers and a young buck. I left him over night and the plan was my brother and I would hunt the morning at the top of the canyon, I would then drive around to the bottom and my brother would hunt his way down. The next morning dawned clear and cold with fresh snow. Conditions were ideal, daylight found us on a great glassing point overlooking a large roadless drainage. Deer were everywhere. On the far side of the drainage was a great buck. It was too far to really judge him, but there was a lot of black above his head. On the ridge in the middle was another good buck, at least 170 but he didn't stay in sight long. In the head of the creek was a tall, good forked upper 20's wide buck in a very killable spot. We decided he was the buck to go after so got up and started after him. Only made it a little ways and another good buck is chasing a doe right at us. I put the glasses on him and my brother asked how big. I said he has big matching hook cheaters and my brother shot him. That was maybe the best day I ever had hunting, but there were others that were close. A few years ago a friend and I went to the same glassing point. Same conditions except a little colder. After better than an hour of looking we turned up maybe 10 deer and only one buck bigger than a fork horn.
I do not expect FWP to manage for days like the one in 88, but we can not continue with the hunting I have seen recently.

 

[antlerradar]

I appreciate that explanation. It is unfortunate to hear from everybody how good it used to be and that FWP doesn't seem to care to listen to the people. What are the major changes that were made years ago that started to make things go down hill? More tags and longer seasons?

The changes are numerous, and I am sure I am going to leave a few out.

It is much harder to get hunting permission on quality private land. This has pushed more hunters on to public land.
The doe tags. In the 80's there was no doe tags on the Custer, the only doe tags I can remember back then were when there was a population problem on the Powder River. It was in the 90's when the doe tags were expanded to region wide and given out much more freely.
The crash of the mule deer population in western Montana. In the 80's you rarely encountered other hunters from west of Billings, Now you commonly see hunters from the western part of the state and Washington license plates are legion.
The elk. The number of elk on the Custer was close to zero in the 80's, now they are everywhere unless you have a tag in your pocket. It is not just the elk competing with deer, but more so the people that the elk attract, all of which have a deer tag or two in there pocket.
Predators. I am not a big blame everything on predators, but the number of lions and black bears has skyrocketed since the 80's. They have to eat something. Mostly though it all adds up to as @SAJ-99 puts it. A big increase in lead poising.

 

[Big Fin]

I attended the Livingston FWP meeting last night. There were about 30 hunters there, which was a good turnout in my mind.

The mule deer proposals were met with mixed support, probably best classified as initial resistance. I think some people realized this was just an information session and didn't comment.

What was again made apparent is that most Montana hunters have a far different view point on Montana mule deer management and the status of Montana mule deer than what one would conclude by reading the threads on Hunt Talk.

 

[mtmiller]

I attended the Livingston FWP meeting last night. There were about 30 hunters there, which was a good turnout in my mind.

Two members of the public in Havre. You win.

 

[huntin24/7]

I attended a meeting last night as well. There were only a couple of us that showed up. The biologists did a good job I thought and were very open to hearing our concerns. I’ll stick to the mule deer aspect of the meeting in this post. A couple takeaways: They seemed fairly serious about the consideration of going to a quota for mule deer buck permits by region at some point. It sounds like the season structure is very unlikely to change anytime soon. Due to the concerns of cwd, herds will generally be managed for a younger age class of bucks. Those are just a few takeaways. Some of this is how it was told to me and some is more of how I interpreted it. I don’t necessarily agree with everything, but I appreciated that the biologists came prepared and legitimately were interested in our concerns/opinions.

 

[huntin24/7]

Two members of the public in Havre. You win.

Not always a bad thing. I was kind of relieved some people didn’t show up at ours so I didn’t have to listen to their word vomit.

 

[DFS]

I attended a meeting last night as well. There were only a couple of us that showed up. The biologists did a good job I thought and were very open to hearing our concerns. I’ll stick to the mule deer aspect of the meeting in this post. A couple takeaways: They seemed fairly serious about the consideration of going to a quota for mule deer buck permits by region at some point. It sounds like the season structure is very unlikely to change anytime soon. Due to the concerns of cwd, herds will generally be managed for a younger age class of bucks. Those are just a few takeaways. Some of this is how it was told to me and some is more of how I interpreted it. I don’t necessarily agree with everything, but I appreciated that the biologists came prepared and legitimately were interested in our concerns/opinions.

If MTFWP were serious about “managing” for cwd step 1 would be to get 100% buy in from every landowner in this state. Otherwise they will just continue to piss pound accessible land into oblivion, about like they are doing now. Not a very well thought out plan unless every landowner is on board with shooting every deer with horns.

 

[huntin24/7]

If MTFWP were serious about “managing” for cwd step 1 would be to get 100% buy in from every landowner in this state. Otherwise they will just continue to piss pound accessible land into oblivion, about like they are doing now. Not a very well thought out plan unless every landowner is on board with shooting every deer with horns.

I did bring this up as an issue. Our unit and most units that currently have high deer numbers are a high %private and agricultural land. As a result, the majority of the B tags getting filled are on a pretty small % of the overall land in these units.

 

[DFS]

What was again made apparent is that most Montana hunters have a far different view point on Montana mule deer management and the status of Montana mule deer than what one would conclude by reading the threads on Hunt Talk.

Made apparent by fwp staff or the hunters in attendance?

 

[Big Fin]

Made apparent by fwp staff or the hunters in attendance?

Hunters. And the hunters who I have talked to who attended other meetings. One in Bozeman even asked rather suspiciously, "Was that your idea?" when referring to some of the mule ideas tossed out by FWP.

The point I've come to understand is that Montana hunters don't want to give up anything they currently have. I think the Department is failing in some areas, but I do agree with them when they say that the majority of hunters do not want any changes that restrict their opportunity. We on HT might have a differing opinion.

I look at my FB and IG pages when I posted things like moving mule deer hunting out of November, or going to "pick your district/region", or other things I put out there. It was 90% against those ideas. And it was pretty venomous commenting. It doesn't change my mind of what I think would be helpful, but it opened my eyes to what the degree of opposition exists to any change.

I think the Department is missing the mark on population estimates. I doubt they have a good handle on harvest, given the archaic methods still employed to account for such.

I don't think the Department is missing the mark when they say the majority of hunters don't want to give up anything as it relates to mule deer buck hunting. Most Montana hunters just are not of the same opinion that is common here on Hunt Talk.

You've explained you haven't shot a mule deer for 9 years. I suspect most Montana hunters would have shot many of the bucks you passed in those 9 years. I've eaten my last four MT deer tags, on purpose, and I will likely do so again this year. Like you, I could have shot some 2-4 year old mule deer, but I chose not to. I suspect a few of those I passed probably got shot later that season.

That leaves me to ask, "Where can some progress be made, given that resident hunters won't budge on their desire to hunt mule deer bucks in November?" There are places where some progress might be made, such as getting rid of the doe tags on public land. That's one that has been pushed by many here. That is a proposal where I see little resistance by hunters, with more resistance by the Department. Why Department resistance? Because they are concerned that landowners might complain. OK, make the doe tags all Private Land Only. That won't solve everything thing, but it is a place where some progress might be possible.

I will continue to pressure FWP that the majority, if not all, antlerless tags for both deer and elk be focused on the area where the problems supposedly exist - private land. Other states do it that way. Montana could do it that way and hopefully focused pressure will get that change to happen.

Wholesale change is going to be hard to get with the opinion of most hunters in Montana. But, hopefully we can work on some ideas that help improve the herd numbers on accessible lands, even if we know it won't do much to change the age class of bucks.

 

[8andcounting]

The point I've come to understand is that Montana hunters don't want to give up anything they currently have. I think the Department is failing in some areas, but I do agree with them when they say that the majority of hunters do not want any changes that restrict their opportunity.

^^^^
Here is the problem . This is why nothing will change

 

[antlerradar]

It is amassing how history repeats it's self. I would bet the market hunters and homesteaders of over a hundred years ago didn't want give up their hunting opportunities when people like TR started pushing for fair chase and other conservation measures.

 

[huntin24/7]

Whether the issue is over hunting, cwd, etc, I don’t think the majority of guys hunting MT actually care about the deer/elk herds. As long as they can easily buy that tag every year and hunt the same way they always have, all is good. I know that sounds exaggerated, but I don’t think it is at this point.

 

[Badlandcat]

I haven’t put my comment in yet on the computer. Personally I think I’d rather see mike deer season stay as it is instead of a region cap. With that said I think the last 2 weeks of rifle should go to a draw by unit. It would help get rid of the bottle neck for other units and maybe save a few forked horns. If they decided to go this route I’d also be ok with letting anyone under 18 continue to hunt that 2 week time frame. I’m happy to see conversations being had and it seems like we are finally making progress.

Why let 18 and under hunt the rut? All that will do is have more dads buying deer tags for their kids and then have their kids sitting in the pickup while the dads' hunt. I'm not saying everyone will do it, but it happens every year in MT and ND.

 

[El Jason]

Crazy how Montanans struggle to understand one can kill deer in October.

Big Fin is right. The overwhelming consensus from hunters is far different than some of the opinions you read here.

 

[Nameless Range]

Whether most Montanans hold different opinions than those that prevail on here or not, we should keep speaking up. I've seen, and sense, a change in the trend of thoughts toward mule deer. Sure, not enough to be called a majority or large fraction, but more than ever. Conversations and statement from folks happen today that would've never happened years ago. It may just take a long dang time to turn this ship around.

 

[Elky Welky]

Billings meeting was interesting, also had 20+ in the room.

I found the conversation to actually be more aligned with what I see here: more hunters interested in big buck quality, and some pretty strong complaints about continuing hunting in late November. It surprised me when I saw that was the opinion on here, and also surprised to see it in Billings. I think the Western MT hunters and Eastern MT hunters have very different views on mule deer in MT. As originally a western Montanan, I've found ample opportunity and numbers in Eastern MT, but people from that side of the state seem quite concerned.

CWD was also a big topic of discussion, but the tone of the room made me feel FWP was more concerned about it than the hunters, who instead seemed, again, more concerned about getting to shoot big bucks.