Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[MTTW]

I seriously doubt you are gonna cut success rates in half by moving the season to October.

It depends where you are talking about. I know areas that it would easily cut the harvest in half. In some areas many deer won't even be available to kill.
Bottom line though, it doesn't need to cut the harvest in half to show population growth.

 

[HappyCamper]

In reading some of the comments I’ve definitely had my mind changed on a few of the proposals, so hopefully the group realizes these discussions can be fruitful. It seems the thing that complicates this the most and ruffles the most feathers is changing season dates across the board. If the goal is to create a healthy mule deer herd I would think the best course of action is to limit their harvest through choosing a species, choosing a region, imposing quotas, and/or cutting the general season short of the rut. No sense is changing up the archery season or elk season and angering those crowds.

 

[MT_Local]

Hi Jed!

PS. No Californians in our group either.
Unless @Eric Albus isn’t shooting straight with us.
View attachment 324715

Makes me want to get social media back, just to watch the insanity…

 

[Hem]

Getting something concrete to start the discussion is one of the hardest parts of the process IMO, so many thanks to the group for doing the hard work. I am optimistic about much of this proposal.
I’m hopeful that some of these changes will reduce the crowding. That, and the accompanying hunting pressure on mule deer the last couple of years is shocking.

One thought that comes to mind though is that I hope we don’t turn whitetails into sacrificial lambs in all this. Some of you remember this buck and the story I posted

View attachment 324705

That was 10 years ago this fall. It was 100% whitetails in there, and they were thick.

The last two years, I’ve been back to hunt this area again. Imagine my surprise that in 2 seasons, I have yet to see a whitetail. Some mule deer, but zero whitetails. Same in several other haunts in a couple different Region 6 “whitetail spots” I haven’t hunted in a while. I hope we don’t lose sight of the fact that, in the face of the ever-increasing crowds and pressures, our supply of whitetails is not inexhaustible either. Shifting pressure from one species to another isn’t going to be sustainable long term. There are going to have to be caps on opportunity at some point.

For me personally, I would be all in on pick a region, pick a species, pick a weapon, or some combination. I am way less in favor of LE everywhere.

This^^.
Thanks for your input HW. Being more of a whitetail guy, the back of my brain has some nervous energy about how worse the whitey hunting might get.

 

[8andcounting]

It isn’t an addition of tags, technically. But it is an addition of NR hunters since the returned tags are now in the hands of two NR hunters rather than one. It contributes to increased NR presence in the field.

this is why there should not be one b tag sold to a NR for deer . Not one.

 

[Gerald Martin]

This^^.
Thanks for your input HW. Being more of a whitetail guy, the back of my brain has some nervous energy about how worse the whitey hunting might get.

You guys are factoring in that deer season would be pick your species as well as pick your region, correct?

One of the main reasons we are proposing pick your species and region is to keep folks from hunting Oct. mule deer and then hammering whitetails in November. You won’t be able to hunt both with a rifle in the same year.

 

[8andcounting]

You guys are factoring in that deer season would be pick your species as well as pick your region, correct?

One of the main reasons we are proposing pick your species and region is to keep folks from hunting Oct. mule deer and then hammering whitetails in November. You won’t be able to hunt both with a rifle in the same year.

Would be interesting to see how many pick whitetails.

 

[Hem]

You guys are factoring in that deer season would be pick your species as well as pick your region, correct?

One of the main reasons we are proposing pick your species and region is to keep folks from hunting Oct. mule deer and then hammering whitetails in November. You won’t be able to hunt both with a rifle in the same year.

Thanks for clarification. Sorry I missed that.

 

[Point Creep]

Would be interesting to see how many pick whitetails.

Count me in. Mule deer are in the tank. I’ll take a whitetail hunt until things change.

 

[antlerradar]

That’s crazy talk!

It may sound crazy, but it isn't.

 

[MTGomer]

Hi Jed!

PS. No Californians in our group either.
Unless @Eric Albus isn’t shooting straight with us.
View attachment 324715

Menasota. Holy smokes Jed.


That’s a former state senator and current state rep, for those that don’t know.

 

[Carnage2011]

Menasota. Holy smokes Jed.


That’s a former state senator and current state rep, for those that don’t know.

Gotta love when they show their intelligence!

 

[sscrano]

You guys are factoring in that deer season would be pick your species as well as pick your region, correct?

One of the main reasons we are proposing pick your species and region is to keep folks from hunting Oct. mule deer and then hammering whitetails in November. You won’t be able to hunt both with a rifle in the same year.

What about b tag holders? You could put in for an A tag for mule deer and still buy over the counter whitetail b tags, right?

 

[cgasner1]

What about b tag holders? You could put in for an A tag for mule deer and still buy over the counter whitetail b tags, right?

Yes

 

[Hunting Wife]

You guys are factoring in that deer season would be pick your species as well as pick your region, correct?

One of the main reasons we are proposing pick your species and region is to keep folks from hunting Oct. mule deer and then hammering whitetails in November. You won’t be able to hunt both with a rifle in the same year.

Right, but at least part of the intent is still to shift some of the rut-hunting, Turkey day deer slaying tradition pressure to whitetails rather than mule deer, correct? Plus I often see suggestions that folks should stock up on whitetail b tags if they just want meat, etc etc. There just seems to be a mentality (among some Montana hunters at large, not this working group necessarily) that whitetails are like rodents and are expendable. Just an observation based on a few comments I’ve seen here, and in many other threads on the forum, and I don’t think that’s necessarily a wise tack to take.

 

[Carnage2011]

If you have a unit that has 200 bucks killed in it per year and you move the season to Oct. and hunt them before they are concentrated on winter range you might only kill 100 bucks.

In every unit that I have hunted there are predators eating deer. Many times, they are eating newborn deer. With the Oct. season example there are 100 more adult deer on the land after season. Presumably these predators will eat some bucks that now exist rather than does. This leaves more adult does on the land. In theory they would reproduce, and you would have more deer in the unit the next year without bucks ever birthing a fawn.

That’s some serious gymnastics. Every person that understands biology will tell you that you don’t manage populations with buck/bull harvest. As long as there are enough males to breed every female then populations are directly related to doe/cow populations. Sure…you can have a tiny percent increase based on a few more bucks that survive, but if you try and use that argument to advocate for this proposal then it’s going down in flames.

 

[sscrano]

Yes

And how about muzzleloader? Would hunters still be able to fill any unused tags?

 

[cgasner1]

Right, but at least part of the intent is still to shift some of the rut-hunting, Turkey day deer slaying tradition pressure to whitetails rather than mule deer, correct? Plus I often see suggestions that folks should stock up on whitetail b tags if they just want meat, etc etc. There just seems to be a mentality (among some Montana hunters at large, not this working group necessarily) that whitetails are like rodents and are expendable. Just an observation based on a few comments I’ve seen here, and in many other threads on the forum, and I don’t think that’s necessarily a wise tack to take.

We did take all this into consideration. That’s why the species got split so hopefully it helps

 

[cgasner1]

And how about muzzleloader? Would hunters still be able to fill any unused tags?

Not to be an ass here but does anyone read regs? It follows the law

 

[antlerradar]

Why are MOGA affiliates so involved in this. I would think the majority of those properties outfitted are managed for both quantity and quality based on the clients expectations. Is this really about Mule Deer or separating seasons to better accomodate existing and new clients. I fail to see why they have a dog in the fight about DIY mule deer hunters when they are doing their own housekeeping. I dont have an answer for the decline in mule deer other than we have arrived at a threshold of harvest and carrying capacity, and folks continue it just blast em. The managed special permit districts are not exactly producing numbers of stellar bucks either. So I think this shifting season dates and blah blah is a business model desire.

Let FWP do their job, although not perfect by no means they do have the greater good in mind and are wary to schemes. Those folks work in wildlife everyday, not for 90 days every two years. We have a large staff with boots on the ground being undermined by special interests and the public to some degree. Maybe if FWP was able to spend more time on game management and less of their time with self proclaimed well meaning "snivelers".

I think of anything until proposal to clearly defines the causes and problem(s), and the solutions specify logical and/or predictable outcomes to those problem statements. IT should taken with a grain of salt at best. How many mule deer bucks does it take to support a family of four. How many acres does it take to support that many bucks. Just invoke a 2-point rule in. "2-points only" for harvest unless you have a special permit statewide. Problem solved, as folks will quit shooting mule deer as the numbers go up then so shall the permits.

Crap hunting on Public land is pushing Montana residents that want better quality hunting to take management into their own hands and lease land to form hunting clubs. These clubs are out competing outfitters for some of the best leases. I can think of at least 100 thousand acres near me that were once leased by outfitters that now lease to private individuals. If you think that outfitters leasing land has been bad for Montana, it is soon to get much worse.