Montana General Season Structure Proposal

[mthuntress406]

The proposal will definitely reduce crowding during rifle season by spreading the pressure out over 2 months and requiring people to pick a region and deer species. I think you probably have a point on increasing crowding for archery season. That makes sense. I think the dates and timing could be shifted around some still following the general framework of the proposal to alleviate your concerns.

I think that would be a good look. Each year there are more and more bowhunters in Montana. Shortening the season is going to just pack more people into a shorter season and cause overcrowding to increase. If it's compromise this group is looking for, why are their heels dug in so hard that this is the only structure that will work and only rebuttal but don't offer to look at amendments to the proposal? They coined this as relief to overcrowding and mule deer management but during the archery season will have the opposite effect.

 

[huskyhunter]

Does anyone have some rough numbers on the amount of bowhunters vs rifle hunters in Montana?

 

[Gerald Martin]

It would be more palatable to do Aug 25-first week of October. Again, shortening the season isn't going to be helpful for overcrowding.

I tend to agree with you and speaking for myself (not for the group) would actually prefer a three week general mule deer season in October. Archers would kill less deer than rifle hunters that first week of October.

The question is, can we get buy in from the rifle hunting contingent that already has to choose between species as well as being limited to one region?

That season structure would look like archers would still get six weeks of season with the only sacrifice being that they’d be limited by region. (A good argument can be made that giving archers the Aug.25 start date is actually an advantage for targeting velvet mule deer bucks still in their summer patterns.)

Mule deer rifle hunters would be taking it in the teeth with only having a three week/no rut limited to single region.

Then, whitetail hunters would get a four week season.

I’m fine with that structure since it would accommodate our overall goal of getting the mule deer hunt out of the rut and distribute pressure by splitting rifle hunters into two categories.

Can we get buy in socially? That’s something I don’t know. There’s currently about 60,000 hunters buying an archery stamp and about 185,000 folks buying a deer tag. I’m assuming that a lot of the folks buying archery stamps also rifle hunt but for sure there’s at least 120,000 more folks looking to kill their deer with a rifle over with a bow.

I personally enjoy hunt hunting with both and will change my strategies

 

[Schaaf]

Does anyone have some rough numbers on the amount of bowhunters vs rifle hunters in Montana?

Roughly 60k bowhunters, 180k rifle hunters. Obviously some overlap between them.

 

[bigsky2]

So this is something that "benefits" your style of hunting, I've also seen another guy in your group talk about patterned summer elk. Many archers are focused on elk and this proposal drastically changes elk hunting. It eliminates 3 weeks of bull hunting in Oct. when elk are at an all time high?

I would argue most of the college kids, native NR and come home to hunt are not hiring an outfitter.

That’s what I just said. That’s why outfitters would not support including them in the 17,000 cap.

 

[mthuntress406]

Does anyone have some rough numbers on the amount of bowhunters vs rifle hunters in Montana?

I think you could get the number of folks with bowstamps in Montana pretty easy. I think it was around 66k if I remember correctly. It's a little harder to determine how many bowhunters pick up a rifle vs just those who rifle hunt only. I don't often pick up a rifle anymore.

 

[mthuntress406]

That’s what I just said. That’s why outfitters would not support including them in the 17,000 cap.

okay that makes sense.

 

[rogerthat]

I think that would be a good look. Each year there are more and more bowhunters in Montana. Shortening the season is going to just pack more people into a shorter season and cause overcrowding to increase. If it's compromise this group is looking for, why are their heels dug in so hard that this is the only structure that will work and only rebuttal but don't offer to look at amendments to the proposal? They coined this as relief to overcrowding and mule deer management but during the archery season will have the opposite effect.

I can’t speak for them but I don’t get the feeling they are dug in at all.

 

[mthuntress406]

Folks have to remember too, archery season is generous because it's far more difficult. I can't remember the stats but I think the hunter days to harvest during archery are considerably higher.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Pick your weapon and pick your region for general deer.

Pick your weapon went over like a lead balloon when the Elk group proposed it. That would be an even greater loss of opportunity than our proposal is asking for.

 

[mthuntress406]

I can’t speak for them but I don’t get the feeling they are dug in at all.

Reading hunt talk, it seems they are more dug in on this specific structure then willing to move seasons or look at alternatives. I guess we will see if they took input when they release their final version to the MDCAC. I do commend the out of the box ideas and don't think everything in it is bad. I just really see a problem with the archery season reduction and completely removing elk hunting from October.

 

[JMos3]

I haven't rifle hunted for years (besides antelope a few years ago)

On your IG you posted that you shot your bull in October last year at 470 yards??

 

[mthuntress406]

On your IG you posted that you shot your bull in October last year at 470 yards??

Yes, you are correct after working my @ss off archery season for 28 days waiting for a mature bull - I shot one opening day of rifle. Sorry, I misspoke… I *usually* don’t pick up the rifle and I was super disappointed to do so but lucky to shoot a nice bull. Definitely a good example & demonstrates the need for archery season to be longer…. 28 days vs 1.

 

[antlerradar]

One of the main reasons for separating mule deer from elk and whitetail is to eliminate the opportunity take by elk hunters on mule deer. Montana has long relied on the law of diminishing returns to distribute hunters. In a nut shell, when populations are in the tank hunters will move else where and give the game a chance to recover. When there are two species, one thriving (elk) and one struggling (mule deer), the struggling species never gets a chance to recover when all of the hunters chasing the thriving elk can also shoot a mule deer. For the record I despise management by the law of diminishing returns, but unless we change to LE we are stuck with it.

The earlier elk season would have some benefits. Felix probably would not have taken the world record if he had waited a week longer to go hunting. By then that bull would have likely been on the river, that is if @The Hedgehog hadn't already stuck him.

 

[MTGomer]

So this is something that "benefits" your style of hunting, I've also seen another guy in your group talk about patterned summer elk. Many archers are focused on elk and this proposal drastically changes elk hunting. It eliminates 3 weeks of bull hunting in Oct. when elk are at an all time high?

I would argue most of the college kids, native NR and come home to hunt are not hiring an outfitter.

Near the beginning of this thread, I mentioned how criticisms of this proposal seem to boil down to selfishness, and whining by people worried about how it may impact them personally, instead of concern for the health of the deer herd.

After reading your posts, Stephanie, I believe that my statement still stands.

 

[mthuntress406]

Near the beginning of this thread, I mentioned how criticisms of this proposal seem to boil down to selfishness, and whining by people worried about how it may impact them personally, instead of concern for the health of the deer herd.

After reading your posts, Stephanie, I believe that my statement still stands.

Because I’m pointing out a huge flaw in your “overcrowding reduction” proposal. Ok.

I said I’m confident this group has their heels dug in and are not looking at compromise, change or input (also why they want you to contact them through here not via personal emails) and after reading rebuttal after rebuttal in almost a rude & demeaning fashion, I believe my statement still stands.

 

[bigsky2]

Because I’m pointing out a huge flaw in your “overcrowding reduction” proposal. Ok.

I said I’m confident this group has their heels dug in and are not looking at compromise, change or input (also why they want you to contact them through here not via personal emails) and after reading rebuttal after rebuttal in almost a rude & demeaning fashion, I believe my statement still stands.

@MTGomer didn’t have a hand in crafting this proposal. You may hate it, but don’t blame him.

 

[cgasner1]

Because I’m pointing out a huge flaw in your “overcrowding reduction” proposal. Ok.

I said I’m confident this group has their heels dug in and are not looking at compromise, change or input (also why they want you to contact them through here not via personal emails) and after reading rebuttal after rebuttal in almost a rude & demeaning fashion, I believe my statement still stands.

Why would we change anything at this point? Because a few people got all pissy online. I have had more calls text and pm from people I haven’t talked to in years about this saying thank you guys for sticking your neck out. Just because you guys are being louder doesn’t mean you’re the majority by any stretch. Most the groups we have given this to are still reading it and having discussions. For the most part all we have received is my rut hunt for feed back

 

[BuzzH]

So this is something that "benefits" your style of hunting, I've also seen another guy in your group talk about patterned summer elk. Many archers are focused on elk and this proposal drastically changes elk hunting. It eliminates 3 weeks of bull hunting in Oct. when elk are at an all time high?

I would argue most of the college kids, native NR and come home to hunt are not hiring an outfitter.

Elk are at an all-time and bowhunters do just slightly more than zero to help that situation all. Not many bowhunters kill cows, even fewer kill multiple cows in a season.

A disproportionate number of bulls are killed during archery season, a vast majority of the archery pressure is on bulls, which I assure you are not at an all time high anywhere I hunt elk in Montana. In particular bull to cow ratios.

The archery hunters in Wyoming seem to have no complaints about a 30 day season for the month of September. Elk need a break on public lands just as much as November mule deer need a break.

You talk about how none of these proposals are based on science, well, tell me what scientific reason there is for allowing archery elk season for 3 weeks in October?

I can make a strong argument that it allows bulls to breed late cows earlier without having additional pressure and no question keeps elk and returns elk to public lands when they get a break from being harassed by archery hunters for 3 additional weeks in October.

I tend to agree with @MTGomer this is just your heels dug in over not wanting to sacrifice anything.

Also, you didn't have to blast a bull at 470 yards last year, you could have made the decision to keep using your bow for another 5 weeks. You can also choose to continue to use your bow the month of November under the current proposal.

 

[mthuntress406]

I tend to agree with you and speaking for myself (not for the group) would actually prefer a three week general mule deer season in October. Archers would kill less deer than rifle hunters that first week of October.

The question is, can we get buy in from the rifle hunting contingent that already has to choose between species as well as being limited to one region?

That season structure would look like archers would still get six weeks of season with the only sacrifice being that they’d be limited by region. (A good argument can be made that giving archers the Aug.25 start date is actually an advantage for targeting velvet mule deer bucks still in their summer patterns.)

Mule deer rifle hunters would be taking it in the teeth with only having a three week/no rut limited to single region.

Then, whitetail hunters would get a four week season.

I’m fine with that structure since it would accommodate our overall goal of getting the mule deer hunt out of the rut and distribute pressure by splitting rifle hunters into two categories.

Can we get buy in socially? That’s something I don’t know. There’s currently about 60,000 hunters buying an archery stamp and about 185,000 folks buying a deer tag. I’m assuming that a lot of the folks buying archery stamps also rifle hunt but for sure there’s at least 120,000 more folks looking to kill their deer with a rifle over with a bow.

I personally enjoy hunt hunting with both and will change my strategies

the Aug.25 start date is actually an advantage for targeting velvet mule deer bucks still in their summer patterns……

hmmmmmm seems opposite of “saving” Mule deer. But again, I think if you did Aug 25-Oct 7 and kept 6 weeks it would be easier. Remember, it’s takes longer to be successful with a bow…. And it’s very easy to see a reduced archery season will not help with overcrowding.

Why would we change anything at this point? Because a few people got all pissy online. I have had more calls text and pm from people I haven’t talked to in years about this saying thank you guys for sticking your neck out. Just because you guys are being louder doesn’t mean you’re the majority by any stretch. Most the groups we have given this to are still reading it and having discussions. For the most part all we have received is my rut hunt for feed back

We know you’re not a fan of MBA but our mission is to preserve and protect the sport of bowhunting in Montana. Sorry for showing there’s other options. Keep telling everyone it’s a draft… lol. This just proved you guys are set on your ways and not looking for anyone to push back. And Jess, I didn’t say I hated it. I said some of it has merit.