Montana General Season Structure Proposal 3.0

[antlerradar]

Don’t disagree but I just don’t see this moving the needle for mule deer. You might have a few more bucks get older but you are still going to kill a ton of younger deer.

Only way in my opinion you move the needle for mule deer is to move it to some sort of limited entry. Wouldn’t even have to be completely limited entry. Make your mule deer general season your October dates. Make a limited entry tag good for November. The catch is if you put in for the November tag whether you draw or not you are not allowed to hunt the general season. Gives people the chance to hunt the rut like Montanans love if they choose to put in for the limited entry and eliminates alot of hunters from the October season that don’t draw saving even more bucks. Would also sell more bonus points for hunters and would cut down on the pile of points some have.

I agree with Buzz, your idea for season structure has some merit, but it brings me back to my original questions many pages ago. I would have to see more details before I could fully jump on board.

 

[bigsky2]

Don’t disagree but I just don’t see this moving the needle for mule deer. You might have a few more bucks get older but you are still going to kill a ton of younger deer.

Only way in my opinion you move the needle for mule deer is to move it to some sort of limited entry. Wouldn’t even have to be completely limited entry. Make your mule deer general season your October dates. Make a limited entry tag good for November. The catch is if you put in for the November tag whether you draw or not you are not allowed to hunt the general season. Gives people the chance to hunt the rut like Montanans love if they choose to put in for the limited entry and eliminates alot of hunters from the October season that don’t draw saving even more bucks. Would also sell more bonus points for hunters and would cut down on the pile of points some have.

I like that idea but it wouldn’t help the landowner fatigue that you keep bringing up. The November limited entry season would need to be shortened to 10-14 days. Make the general tag an unlimited “first and only choice” so if you apply for the November permit and don’t draw then you don’t go deer hunting and there’s one less hunter chasing deer.

 

[brockel]

I like that idea but it wouldn’t help the landowner fatigue that you keep bringing up. The November limited entry season would need to be shortened to 10-14 days. Make the general tag an unlimited “first and only choice” so if you apply for the November permit and don’t draw then you don’t go deer hunting and there’s one less hunter chasing deer.

The landowner fatigue will be there no matter what because we are still killing whitetail and bird hunting through November. This way just cuts the amount of people out on the landscape because not everyone is going to draw the November tag but there’s going to be a ton of people putting in for the November rut tag. Once they don’t draw they aren’t hunting deer that year. Which should help some of the fatigue.

 

[antlerradar]

I like that idea but it wouldn’t help the landowner fatigue that you keep bringing up. The November limited entry season would need to be shortened to 10-14 days. Make the general tag an unlimited “first and only choice” so if you apply for the November permit and don’t draw then you don’t go deer hunting and there’s one less hunter chasing deer.

I think one of the biggest hurtles for LE is how do you handle the 17000+ NR combo licenses. To make LE work you are probably going to have to split them into NR deer and NR elk, and that is going to add a lot more NR.

 

[antlerradar]

The landowner fatigue will be there no matter what because are still killing whitetail and bird hunting through November. This way just cuts the amount of people out on the landscape because not everyone is going to draw the November tag but there’s going to be a ton of people putting in for the November rut tag. Once they don’t draw they aren’t hunting deer that year. Which should help some of the fatigue.

Just depend on how the quotas are set. Set the quotas too high and you are just adding length to the season and no improvement in quality. Set the quotas to low and anyone that wants to be eating a deer is not going to apply.
I would not apply for the rut hunt. Most of my success on big deer has been in Oct. For me that rut tag would lower the chances that I got the big buck I was looking for.

 

[Forkyfinder]

For me that rut tag would lower the chances that I got the big buck I was looking for.

How so?

Unless you knew where he lived a long time first.

 

[brockel]

Just depend on how the quotas are set. Set the quotas too high and you are just adding length to the season and no improvement in quality. Set the quotas to low and anyone that wants to be eating a deer is not going to apply.
I would not apply for the rut hunt. Most of my success on big deer has been in Oct. For me that rut tag would lower the chances that I got the big buck I was looking for.

See it’s the complete opposite for me. I have zero desire to chase deer with a rifle when it’s 70 degrees out. If I wanted to do that I’d have done it the month before with my bow. To me there’s something special about hunting the gumbo buttes in cold weather with a dusting of snow on them watching rut activity. I don’t even do much deer hunting anymore but if it was an October only season I’d probably not hunt deer at all. Which isn’t a big deal as it would open my novembers up to doing something I enjoy more and I’d enjoy it even more with less people on public land in November.

 

[brockel]

Funny we debate this stuff all year long acting like FWP will ever get rid of rut hunting. Not a chance with fwp worrying about cwd.

 

[antlerradar]

How so?

Unless you knew where he lived a long time first.

You nailed it, the key to killing big deer is scouting. Nearly all the value of scouting is out the window when the rut starts. The rut shifts the probability of success away from work and knowledge and more towards just getting lucky. This favors the hunter from farther away over locals and NR over Residents.

 

[antlerradar]

See it’s the complete opposite for me. I have zero desire to chase deer with a rifle when it’s 70 degrees out. If I wanted to do that I’d have done it the month before with my bow. To me there’s something special about hunting the gumbo buttes in cold weather with a dusting of snow on them watching rut activity. I don’t even do much deer hunting anymore but if it was an October only season I’d probably not hunt deer at all. Which isn’t a big deal as it would open my novembers up to doing something I enjoy more and I’d enjoy it even more with less people on public land in November.

I get what you are saying, I have had some magical days, just like you are describing. It is also the reason so many NR are drawn to MT and partially eastern MT. Your Idea would help with this, but only if you set the quotas low and there is not some back door way of getting tags.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I think one of the biggest hurtles for LE is how do you handle the 17000+ NR combo licenses. To make LE work you are probably going to have to split them into NR deer and NR elk, and that is going to add a lot more NR.

Given that most get the combo, doesnt 3.0 kind of have the same issue? I seem to remember a lot of NR targetting mule deer. They cant shoot an elk at all that trip if theyre mule deer rifle hunting in oct. Unless youre counting on them to go in that overlap window? In the event they arent or dont - id imagine hunter days go up.

You nailed it, the key to killing big deer is scouting. Nearly all the value of scouting is out the window when the rut starts. The rut shifts the probability of success away from work and knowledge and more towards just getting lucky. This favors the hunter from farther away over locals and NR over Residents.

I see your point.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Funny we debate this stuff all year long acting like FWP will ever get rid of rut hunting. Not a chance with fwp worrying about cwd.

Actually - i think theres a great solution on the table thats not been discussed much.

When fwp deems an area has a CWD problem - they could open the novermber hunting to mule deer with B tags and wipe out the deer in a concentrated effort that could be contained to something as small as part of a unit.

 

[bigsky2]

Given that most get the combo, doesnt 3.0 kind of have the same issue? I seem to remember a lot of NR targetting mule deer. They cant shoot an elk at all that trip if theyre mule deer rifle hunting in oct. Unless youre counting on them to go in that overlap window? In the event they arent or dont - id imagine hunter days go up.

That's the point, the NR combo would incentivize NR to choose the second season and be more likely to hunt whitetail as it coincides with elk season for a longer period of time. There would still be plenty of NR choosing the second season that would want to shoot a mule deer, so I would imagine that overlap window would definitely be busy. It would just be busy for a shorter duration of time than what we have now, and the mule deer wouldn't be rutting yet (or just barely starting to).

 

[antlerradar]

The landowner fatigue will be there no matter what because we are still killing whitetail and bird hunting through November. This way just cuts the amount of people out on the landscape because not everyone is going to draw the November tag but there’s going to be a ton of people putting in for the November rut tag. Once they don’t draw they aren’t hunting deer that year. Which should help some of the fatigue.

There is an easy solution for this. Put November whitetails on a restrictive LE quota to.

 

[antlerradar]

Actually - i think theres a great solution on the table thats not been discussed much.

When fwp deems an area has a CWD problem - they could open the novermber hunting to mule deer with B tags and wipe out the deer in a concentrated effort that could be contained to something as small as part of a unit.

It is too late for that.

 

[antlerradar]

Given that most get the combo, doesnt 3.0 kind of have the same issue? I seem to remember a lot of NR targetting mule deer. They cant shoot an elk at all that trip if theyre mule deer rifle hunting in oct. Unless youre counting on them to go in that overlap window? In the event they arent or dont - id imagine hunter days go up.


I see your point.

That's the point, the NR combo would incentivize NR to choose the second season and be more likely to hunt whitetail as it coincides with elk season for a longer period of time. There would still be plenty of NR choosing the second season that would want to shoot a mule deer, so I would imagine that overlap window would definitely be busy. It would just be busy for a shorter duration of time than what we have now, and the mule deer wouldn't be rutting yet (or just barely starting to).

Plenty of NR would still chose to hunt season one, but it would incentivize those NR to come the last part of the season so that they could also hunt elk. This would give residents that want to hunt mule deer a two week head start on the majority of NR. This would be a huge bonus for a resident that wanted to hunt mule deer. They could hunt the mountain with little competition from those that chose the second season and most NR. Granted it would be a more difficult time to hunt.

 

[WanderWoman]

At the time the biggest impact to mule deer happened it was an unlimited youth hunt.

Quotas for B tags in 410 have been limited, but quite liberal.

4000 antelope hunters in r7. 1500 ish cow b tags in 410 that lead to the leading of mule deer.

No way the youth hunt had near the damage the cow hunters did.

There were 1200 cow tags in 410 2004-2005, then dropped to 600 in 2006 and 400 in 2007. Youth hunt was 2005-2007, during that time there were 1200 ES antelope licenses and 1000 D/F valid in 481. Mule deer B licenses in 410 increased during this time (300 in ‘06, 600 in ‘07-‘08) suggesting that numbers were doing alright then.

Now, there are 750 cow Bs for 410, 5 mule deer B, and 150 ES Antelope/100 D/F Antelope for the 2025 season.

Amazing how things have changed.

 

[brockel]

There were 1200 cow tags in 410 2004-2005, then dropped to 600 in 2006 and 400 in 2007. Youth hunt was 2005-2007, during that time there were 1200 ES antelope licenses and 1000 D/F valid in 481. Mule deer B licenses in 410 increased during this time (300 in ‘06, 600 in ‘07-‘08) suggesting that numbers were doing alright then.

Now, there are 750 cow Bs for 410, 5 mule deer B, and 150 ES Antelope/100 D/F Antelope for the 2025 season.

Amazing how things have changed.

Hunted 410 nearly every year from either me or family or friends having elk tags from 2008-2024. That place is a shell of itself from what it was for elk hunting but I seen more mule deer there last year than any year prior. Also seen whitetail in places I’d never seen whitetail

 

[8andcounting]

There were 1200 cow tags in 410 2004-2005, then dropped to 600 in 2006 and 400 in 2007. Youth hunt was 2005-2007, during that time there were 1200 ES antelope licenses and 1000 D/F valid in 481. Mule deer B licenses in 410 increased during this time (300 in ‘06, 600 in ‘07-‘08) suggesting that numbers were doing alright then.

Now, there are 750 cow Bs for 410, 5 mule deer B, and 150 ES Antelope/100 D/F Antelope for the 2025 season.

Amazing how things have changed.

How many archery bull permits in 410 back then compared to today ?

 

[WanderWoman]

How many archery bull permits in 410 back then compared to today ?

410 has the lowest archery quotas now as it’s ever had. 1000 today compared to 1900 (I think it was always around there) when it was also valid in 417, but hardly anyone hunted 417 with it—bulk of pressure was always in 410.

Hunted 410 nearly every year from either me or family or friends having elk tags from 2008-2024. That place is a shell of itself from what it was for elk hunting but I seen more mule deer there last year than any year prior. Also seen whitetail in places I’d never seen whitetail

According to trend area data mule deer are still 67% below LTA in 410.