Montana General Season Structure Proposal 3.0

[Schaaf]

You guys need to check out the age data I posted in the Montana Mule Deer Mismanagement thread before you get carried away on age structure. Not sure how to link a thread

I wouldn’t put too much weight in their age dataset since it’s all tied to CWD tests and visual tooth aging. At least all the age data I’ve seen recently has been compiled from the CWD tests. Since CWD has entered the state the messaging has been that older deer are more likely to have the disease.

It would be similar to taking the ages of all patients that underwent a colonoscopy and claiming that is the age of your average male.

 

[rogerthat]

I wouldn’t put too much weight in their age dataset since it’s all tied to CWD tests and visual tooth aging. At least all the age data I’ve seen recently has been compiled from the CWD tests. Since CWD has entered the state the messaging has been that older deer are more likely to have the disease.

It would be similar to taking the ages of all patients that underwent a colonoscopy and claiming that is the age of your average male.

I agree but region 7 and fwp is hanging their hat on this data. They are who you will need to convince with your arguments. I think it’s game, set, and match for any chance of change with this data.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Can Montana balance conservation, hunting to save its disappearing mule deer population?

How to stall the falling of Montana's mule deer population is a question the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife & Parks is attempting to figure out.

helenair.com

 

[Elky Welky]

Can Montana balance conservation, hunting to save its disappearing mule deer population?

How to stall the falling of Montana's mule deer population is a question the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife & Parks is attempting to figure out.

helenair.com

"One recommendation was very specific: 'We should have a two-week general season for mule deer with permit only for the last three weeks or white-tailed deer only.'"

Good work @Forkyfinder.

 

[antlerradar]

"One recommendation was very specific: 'We should have a two-week general season for mule deer with permit only for the last three weeks or white-tailed deer only.'"

Good work @Forkyfinder.

While I think this idea has promise, I would have to see more details. The more I think about it the more questions I have.
How would quotas be set?
Do permit holders get to hunt the General?
What happens to turned back tags?
What happen if the quota is not filled?

The answers are sure to bring more questions.

This could use its own thread, What is not to love about another Montana Mule deer thread.

 

[Forkyfinder]

While I think this idea has promise, I would have to see more details. The more I think about it the more questions I have.
How would quotas be set?
Do permit holders get to hunt the General?
What happens to turned back tags?
What happen if the quota is not filled?

The answers are sure to bring more questions.

This could use its own thread, What is not to love about another Montana Mule deer thread.

Sort of like the relevant questions some of us have had continue to go unanswered too.

Like if incidental harvest is a concern - why is antelope not? Its been attempted to be explained away by lots of words and little logic. How will you stop people from hunting both seasons? Why are we ruining elk hunting by opening it earlier? What is going to come of elk hunting in every region not 6 or 7 after people chase deer around for 4 weeks? Ive heard it time and time again - elk are more sensitive to pressure than mule deer - but im supposed to believe hunting deer for weeks before them wont push them out early.

Theres plenty of unanswered questions about the mcs/ mark taylor group/volunteer proposal that also cant be answered until it happens.

I can tell you that any push for LE will have plenty of uphill hurdles. Moga and guys like @Big Shooter cant have their bottom line cut by putting R first.

As far as "why/how/what" on a LE proposal and how itd work - ive got no interest working through the details here. I don't think anyone associated with LE proposal feels any different. I shouldnt really need to explain why.

 

[Carnage2011]

Sort of like the relevant questions some of us have had continue to go unanswered too.

Like if incidental harvest is a concern - why is antelope not? Its been attempted to be explained away by lots of words and little logic. How will you stop people from hunting both seasons? Why are we ruining elk hunting by opening it earlier? What is going to come of elk hunting in every region not 6 or 7 after people chase deer around for 4 weeks? Ive heard it time and time again - elk are more sensitive to pressure than mule deer - but im supposed to believe hunting deer for weeks before them wont push them out early.

Theres plenty of unanswered questions about the mcs/ mark taylor group/volunteer proposal that also cant be answered until it happens.

I can tell you that any push for LE will have plenty of uphill hurdles. Moga and guys like @Big Shooter cant have their bottom line cut by putting R first.

As far as "why/how/what" on a LE proposal and how itd work - ive got no interest working through the details here. I don't think anyone associated with LE proposal feels any different. I shouldnt really need to explain why.

While there are definitely questions that no one knows the answer to with the OG proposal. I think all of @antlerradar questions are valid though and you should have an idea on how to answer them if you have a proposal. Also, you’re questioning outcomes/effects of their proposal. They are questioning how yours would be implemented. You should be able to provide guidelines at the very least.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Sort of like the relevant questions some of us have had continue to go unanswered too.

Like if incidental harvest is a concern - why is antelope not? Its been attempted to be explained away by lots of words and little logic. How will you stop people from hunting both seasons? Why are we ruining elk hunting by opening it earlier? What is going to come of elk hunting in every region not 6 or 7 after people chase deer around for 4 weeks? Ive heard it time and time again - elk are more sensitive to pressure than mule deer - but im supposed to believe hunting deer for weeks before them wont push them out early.

Theres plenty of unanswered questions about the mcs/ mark taylor group/volunteer proposal that also cant be answered until it happens.

I can tell you that any push for LE will have plenty of uphill hurdles. Moga and guys like @Big Shooter cant have their bottom line cut by putting R first.

As far as "why/how/what" on a LE proposal and how itd work - ive got no interest working through the details here. I don't think anyone associated with LE proposal feels any different. I shouldnt really need to explain why.

I’ll answer your questions.

1. Is incidental harvest ( in the context of how many mule deer are killed opportunisticly by antelope hunters as contrasted to how manly mule deer are killed opportunistically by elk hunters) a concern? Simple answer- no. When the entire state is considered, my prediction is that the overall numbers of mule deer harvested will decline. In regions that have mule deer/antelope overlap, a significant portion of antelope hunters may potentially harvest a mule deer during their antelope hunt or accompany other antelope tag holders to hunt deer while they hunt antelope. Since deer hunters will have to choose their deer season when they buy their tag and results of the antelope draw comes out in August, anyone holding both a deer and an antelope tag are going to be killing a mule deer and an antelope relative to their effort and ability regardless of whether both are killed in October or the deer is killed in November. My prediction is less or the same amount of mule deer killed overall in regions where mule deer/ antelope overlap.

2. How will you stop people from hunting both seasons? You won’t. There’s no reason to stop people from hunting both seasons at this point. If mule deer harvest increases beyond the current percentage of the population being killed with the current season structure that can be adjusted.

3. Why are we ruining elk hunting by opening it earlier? I assume you’re talking about the early season private land antlerless hunt? You make a bold statement by saying we’re ruining elk hunting. I’ll make an equally bold statement by saying we’re going to make elk hunting better by giving people interested in filling their freezer with delicious elk meat the opportunity to shoot a cow and not be in the elk woods competing with other hunters on public land during the general hunt. Plus, the early harvest pressure has potential in some areas to move elk from private land to more accessible land for bull elk hunt during the general season. ( This will not be universal statewide and will be dependent on a lot of factors related to security cover patterns of local elk movement, etc..

4. What is going to become of elk hunting after people have been hunting deer for four weeks in regions not 6 and 7? Trying to predict that with specificity is not possible but if I had to guess there’s not going be a drastically observable impact. Contextually, if you look at current season structure elk have been specifically targeted for six weeks prior to general season by archers and there is only a week long break between the pressure.
With our proposal there will potentially be some effects of elk moving away from access points but after six weeks of archery that’s pretty well established already. In my experience there’s a big difference between direct pressure of animals being stalked and shot at and indirect pressure of more road traffic and hunters in the woods. Indirect pressure isn’t without effect, but elk don’t just leave the country when there’s indirect pressure.


I’m looking forward to hearing your answers to @Antlerradar’s questions about LE.

 

[Gerald Martin]

As far as "why/how/what" on a LE proposal and how itd work - ive got no interest working through the details here. I don't think anyone associated with LE proposal feels any different. I shouldnt really need to explain why.

Yeah, this has been my experience with everyone promoting LE as the answer. Not only do they not want to provide details here, they aren’t willing to provide details anywhere.

As a group we examined LE as an option for how we could implement it. We couldn’t answer @Antlerradars questions ourselves to our satisfaction and abandoned the idea as a practical solution given the current expectations of MT resident hunters,the political climate surrounding this issue and FWP’s funding needs.

Asking folks who are promoting an idea we abandoned for the answers we couldn’t give seems reasonable to me.

 

[El Jason]

Things get more complex and difficult when you actually put rubber to the road.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Things get more complex and difficult when you actually put rubber to the road.

That’s why the simplicity of just stating how things should be is so appealing.

FWP should just put more and bigger mule deer bucks and bull elk onto public lands so we can have a more desirable hunting experience.

 

[Schaaf]

I will say there is much more overlap of my elk and mule deer hunting areas than there is my deer and antelope areas. It's certainly possible but I'm not overly worried about opportunistic mule deer harvest during a limited entry pronghorn season.

 

[antlerradar]

Incidental harvest by pronghorn hunters in the western part of the state is a non issue, I am of the opinion that mule deer will be more impacted by elk hunters than pronghorn in much of region 7. For one the better mule deer habitat and the better pronghorn are not the same place. It is hard to be in two places at the same time. Can you do a combo hunt for mule deer and pronghorn, sure, you could hunt pronghorn in the morning and mule deer in the afternoon. Good luck finding a nice buck that is beaded down for the day on a warm Oct day. It can be done, but it is not easy. Elk and mule deer, are in the same place.
There are close to as many elk hunters below the Yellowstone as there are going to be pronghorn hunters with a season one tag. When you figure in all the hunters helping the rifle bull tag holders, the 1400 with cow tags and all of the hunters hunting elk on a general and then figure that resident hunters chose whitetails, it is likely a wash on elk to pronghorn, except that the elk hunters will also be hunting the best deer habitat.
How do you stop people from hunting both season. Poachers are going to poach. I would start with stiffer penalties and more enforcement. No matter what happens I would hope we could all agree on that. The same could be asked of LE. How are we going to stop people that do not draw from hunting anyway. LE its self is not going to stop a poacher. I was just reading about a group that was archery hunting 380 without the proper permits. I wonder how many people hunted the recent LE units in region 4 that did not draw the tags? @bigsky2
I hardly think that opening up archery a week earlier is going to ruin elk hunting, The vast majority of elk hunters are not going to save their vacation for the middle part of Sept. I can even think of quite a few places where hunting early give a hunter a better chance of catching a bull before he leaves public for private land. Think of the Felix bull.
Not sure where you are getting that we will be hunting mule deer four weeks before elk hunting starts. I see less than two and a half and in the western part of the state with at least half of hunters choosing season two and the ones that do chose season one likely using their vacation when they can hunt both mule deer and elk, that first two week and a half week of the season is going to be pretty quiet on the mountain.
The biggest hurtle for LE in not going to come from MOGA, it is going to come from FWP. Hard to say how LE will effect MOGA members without any numbers. Set the quotas high and MOGA will be smiling all the bank. To really start to hurt MOGA members in the bank account, you are probably going to have to set quotas low enough that residents are also feeling some pain and that is if Montana can some how avoid some form of landowner tags in the next legislature. Without details "putting residents first" is just a platitude.
If people pushing LE don't feel it is necessary to provide some details, they should not be butt hurt when they are not taken seriously. They will have earned the Trolls sniveling bitches nickname.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Elk and mule deer, are in the same place.

Precisely why if i was outfitting on private land - especially in the western part of state, but also true east - id be overjoyed to hear that public deer hunters will be pushing wildlife cash cows (ELK) on to private. Not just earlier in archery - but safe from harvest with the pressure on mule deer for a whole month when the rifles are going.

Its disappointing how much hand waving has been done about "mule deer" - the MCS proposal changes as much or more about elk. Wonder why? Why did the article mention special interests? Hmmm.

 

[bigsky2]

Precisely why if i was outfitting on private land - especially in the western part of state, but also true east - id be overjoyed to hear that public deer hunters will be pushing wildlife cash cows (ELK) on to private. Not just earlier in archery - but safe from harvest with the pressure on mule deer for a whole month when the rifles are going.

Its disappointing how much hand waving has been done about "mule deer" - the MCS proposal changes as much or more about elk. Wonder why? Why did the article mention special interests? Hmmm.

Please stop calling it the MCS proposal. That’s like calling the other proposal the BHA or MWF proposal.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Apparently, I misunderstood the question Forky ansked about people hunting both seasons. I thought he meant antelope and the early deer season. Not early deer and late deer.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Precisely why if i was outfitting on private land - especially in the western part of state, but also true east - id be overjoyed to hear that public deer hunters will be pushing wildlife cash cows (ELK) on to private. Not just earlier in archery - but safe from harvest with the pressure on mule deer for a whole month when the rifles are going.

Its disappointing how much hand waving has been done about "mule deer" - the MCS proposal changes as much or more about elk. Wonder why? Why did the article mention special interests? Hmmm.

@Forkyfinder, there are three different threads about our proposal, each bearing the title “MT General Season Structure…”. and the specific proposals relative to each of the three drafts released for public consideration in each thread.

You’ve been respectfully asked relevant questions regarding the proposal you have been endorsing on this thread. Yet, rather than answering those questions you continue to deflect and cast innuendo about the motives of the authors of our proposal.

For the record, when you’re calling this the MCS proposal, Ben’s and Rob’s involvement as part of MCS has been limited to helping us organize our material and present it to both the public and to FWP. They have been present for our zoom calls and have given their opinions on various ideas at times as hunters, but the ideas and proposals as written have been 100% original to the rest of us who have signed the proposal as authors.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Please stop calling it the MCS proposal. That’s like calling the other proposal the BHA or MWF proposal.

The other ones been called that here repeatedly and other things that lack respect. At least my nicknames patently true.

Would you prefer the mark taylor group proposal?

 

[Forkyfinder]

@Forkyfinder, there are three different threads about our proposal, each bearing the title “MT General Season Structure…”. and the specific proposals relative to each of the three drafts released for public consideration in each thread.

You’ve been respectfully asked relevant questions regarding the proposal you have been endorsing on this thread. Yet, rather than answering those questions you continue to deflect and cast innuendo about the motives of the authors of our proposal.

For the record, when you’re calling this the MCS proposal, Ben’s and Rob’s involvement as part of MCS has been limited to helping us organize our material and present it to both the public and to FWP. They have been present for our zoom calls and have given their opinions on various ideas at times as hunters, but the ideas and proposals as written have been 100% original to the rest of us who have signed the proposal as authors.

Youve never answered my relevant questions?

What name would you prefer? I suppose since the only orgs that were there were MOGA (3 presidents) and MCS?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Apparently, I misunderstood the question Forky ansked about people hunting both seasons. I thought he meant antelope and the early deer season. Not early deer and late deer.

Maybe you never understood all along

Have you really not considered how much more senstive to pressure (direct and indirect) elk are too mule deer? Thats the only logical reason for a "cow only" october season. Someone in the group realized public land elk were headed to private land in the october mule deer season, or it wouldnt have been added.

In 5 seconds, im sure someone will say "wyoming has that for 2 weeks" without any regard for the obvious differences in public land /private land geography in the two states.