8andcounting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,255
Well too bad for me i was in the 24 %
Montana General Deer 2019
- Thread starter MNWhitetail
- Start date
That information has been available since 2011 when they started the PP system. http://fwp.mt.gov/news/newsReleases/hunting/nr_1511.html
I agree not a perfect system but is 8yrs old. Someone posted earlier that with Corey and GoHunt pushing the need for points the day will come that not having a point would be a higher percent chance to draw than having and we are almost there it looks like.
I wouldn't be surprised to see MT up the tag price $200-300 in the next 3yrs the demand is there.
Sorry you didnt draw your tag hope you can get on the alternate list and pull a tag! Good luck on all your hunts this fala
matt0550
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2019
- Messages
- 271
Wow....for an outsider who had never participated in the Montana draw before reading all of this is eye opening.
I can see tags going up everywhere in unison as all of the states take inventory of the states surrounding them and recognize they offer close to if not identical opportunities (region to region).
I've participated in other western states programs and a couple of Indian reservations systems and they have all been vastly different - each with their own wierd niche oddity that cant be explained and appears unfair to a portion of applicants. The truth is that total fair and equitable distribution of licenses is probably not TRULY possible....but it would be nice to get closer then many currently are.
In an ideal points system would a guy want just "highest point wins the draw"? For my money/planning efforts, that's how I'd want it...I'm sure I'm about to become educated on the finer points of how I am missing something when I say that. That's really why I am here - education...and to share what I know (however little).
brownbear932008
Well-known member
matt0550
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2019
- Messages
- 271
So this may be just my ignorance of the topic showing - but couldnt a full "random only" draw leave a guy randomly not drawing for his entire life? Possible no? Also possible that the same super lucky guy draws every single year? Worse is what I saw in one system where BELIEVE IT OR NOT I saw the proof that who you know does matter and see the same group of guys draw every year because they have a connection at the wildlife office (and no I wont say where, but not MT obviously). That concerns me more than any other aspect, and dont think for one second that it cant wont and hasn't happened- as you said, every man is trying to eek out an advantage. I myself believe in obeying the rules and standing in line - this has lead to many disappointing draw results but eventually that lead to the elation of getting drawn. I'm not against a total random draw, but I have real concerns with the above.
brownbear932008
Well-known member
Random draw puts everyone on the same level playing field everyone has the same chance at drawing the tags. Look at some of these states that are 100% preference points only some of them close to 25 years into these systems. How does a young hunter just wanting to get a tag stand a chance of getting one? There are a few states I've decided are not worth my time or money because of this and I'm over 13 years in some of these systems.
It is what it is many of these areas are locked into these point games knowing they are not good for new hunter recruitment but at the same time it's hard for them to kick a guy in the nads with over 20 years of points built up in their system. Now I'd have a hard time believing a general MT tag would ever require more than 5 points in my lifetime because of the quality of deer there don't exist and probably never will at this rate.
I'm just no fan of point systems even though I'm like anyone else I'm taking full advantage of some that are decent systems with the mix and match squared points and hybrid draws ect.
Now as far as the unethical dealings within any g&f department that has nothing to do with points imo and a point system probably isn't going to fix that. If someone is caught up in that hogwash they should be terminated on the spot no question asked.
I have heard of rumors of such doings but never seen anything proven here in a neighboring state and their elk tags.
Man I guess at the end of the day I'm just not happy with where I see these systems going in the future. A lot of guys have been around longer than I and have more experience. I'm about 20 years into hunting out west myself and it's not improving I feel.
I have a good buddy who has a friend trying to draw the Utah Henry deer tag after I think 26 years he is one of 2 left in the top pp pool. I give him credit he has waited that long to hunt a tag and I hope it's worth it to him. Me personally it isn't I'd rather have went to another unit 3-4 times and had great hunts with my buddies during that time. It's crazy a guy waits that long in these systems to draw a tag and now he is around 70 and probably can't give the tag what it deserves because of age.
It is what it is many of these areas are locked into these point games knowing they are not good for new hunter recruitment but at the same time it's hard for them to kick a guy in the nads with over 20 years of points built up in their system. Now I'd have a hard time believing a general MT tag would ever require more than 5 points in my lifetime because of the quality of deer there don't exist and probably never will at this rate.
I'm just no fan of point systems even though I'm like anyone else I'm taking full advantage of some that are decent systems with the mix and match squared points and hybrid draws ect.
Now as far as the unethical dealings within any g&f department that has nothing to do with points imo and a point system probably isn't going to fix that. If someone is caught up in that hogwash they should be terminated on the spot no question asked.
I have heard of rumors of such doings but never seen anything proven here in a neighboring state and their elk tags.
Man I guess at the end of the day I'm just not happy with where I see these systems going in the future. A lot of guys have been around longer than I and have more experience. I'm about 20 years into hunting out west myself and it's not improving I feel.
I have a good buddy who has a friend trying to draw the Utah Henry deer tag after I think 26 years he is one of 2 left in the top pp pool. I give him credit he has waited that long to hunt a tag and I hope it's worth it to him. Me personally it isn't I'd rather have went to another unit 3-4 times and had great hunts with my buddies during that time. It's crazy a guy waits that long in these systems to draw a tag and now he is around 70 and probably can't give the tag what it deserves because of age.
8andcounting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,255
My problem is this - pretty simple really , I bought a $50 pp and didn’t draw , yet several without the $50 pp drew that is BS....
I think that sentiment is 100% understandable, but this scenario exists everywhere where there is both a point and random element in the same draw.
Sounds like the Montana general draw is soon going to be pretty much the same type of setup as the Wyoming elk draw. Get lucky with no points, or you’ll need 3 or so to be guaranteed the tag.
Sounds like the Montana general draw is soon going to be pretty much the same type of setup as the Wyoming elk draw. Get lucky with no points, or you’ll need 3 or so to be guaranteed the tag.
As you know from our conversations i feel for you. However, by you buying that pp you had a better chance than the person who didnt. Its a lottery draw, and you were in the lottery with the better odds.
You will get an alternate tag anyway
8andcounting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,255
I know . And I hope so ! I can’t complain . This is first time I been denied since 2009As you know from our conversations i feel for you. However, by you buying that pp you had a better chance than the person who didnt. Its a lottery draw, and you were in the lottery with the better odds.
You will get an alternate tag anyway
8andcounting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,255
I can see it getting to be 2 points needed . However that would still mean a guy probably draws every other year . As a NR can’t complain about that
With the demand, it is interesting to think what Montana will do with prices. As a NRN, I get them half off and don’t have to be in the draw. I also have what most would consider decent spots from 28 years of living there. At that price, a deer tag still isn’t worth it for me.
In my opinion, NR big game combo prices as is, are way out of line for the average guy with no honey hole and a week to hunt. Obviously demand says otherwise. Would be interesting to see how many they’d sell another year with a 20% increase in price and an economy that isn’t going crazy.
In my opinion, NR big game combo prices as is, are way out of line for the average guy with no honey hole and a week to hunt. Obviously demand says otherwise. Would be interesting to see how many they’d sell another year with a 20% increase in price and an economy that isn’t going crazy.
BuzzH
Well-known member
I think a lot of people are just unaware how bad the hunting is getting in Montana on public land. Like one friend told me when talking to a guy that started hunting last year and hunted most the season without seeing an elk. My friend said, "that doesn't surprise me, the hunting has gone to chit in Montana"...the guy's reply was, "well, I guess its better than nothing".
Yeah, I guess taking your rifle for a hike for 5 weeks is better than not hunting at all.
I agree with your assessment that the price being charged for the NR deer and elk tags is out of line for the lack of quality and experience these days. That wasn't the case when I was paying $650ish for a combo tag in the early 2000's, was worth the investment when the hunting was still good and even then, I thought $650 for the deer/elk combo was the upper end of the price point.
The elk hunting, in particular has gotten so poor on public land, I quit buying the elk tag. I could add it for an additional $200 upgrade on the NRN deer combo. Even an additional $200 isn't worth it, IMO. If not for my family living in Montana, I wouldn't even buy the half price NRN deer combo either. The deer hunting is quickly turning into the same pile of chit as the elk hunting, at least on public land.
Like you, it shocks me that the average NR is willing to shell out the crazy prices of the combo tags, for the kind of hunting Montana has.
brownbear932008
Well-known member
Simple fix for everyone quit buying pp and save your 50$ a year. When I first started hunting MT on the deer combo in 99 I think the price was a little over 300$ and a 25% draw odds. You would go 3-4 years and not draw a tag sometimes. There was no preference system and the hunting was way better than now. That state needs a major overhaul on it's regulations to include shorter seasons and less tags given out imo. I just told a buddy of mine last night this may be the last year for me hunting deer and possibly elk in MT it's just not what it once was. But I will give them one thing their marketing skills to sell tags are on freaking point man. Probably should give that employee a big raise or something. Hahaha
antlerradar
Well-known member
I wonder what percentage of the nonresidents are hunting private land.
Mtnhunter1
Well-known member
I would say that the percentage is very high!
8andcounting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,255
For deer , I would say that too . Seems like most NRs I talk to Have a place lined up . Elk I think most hunt on NFS land in traditional elk areas in SW MT
T
timmy
Guest
I find it comical people are upset about not getting a Montana general deer tag. I would also disagree with people saying the majority of non-residents hunt private. At least around the Miles City area it seems like they are on public and have plenty of doe tags.
8andcounting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2013
- Messages
- 3,255
Yeh which is ridiculous. The amount of r7 b tags is laughable... shouldn’t be many if any alloweded on public
