Montana FWP Seeking Applicants For Elk Advisory Group

[antlerradar]

A little disappointed in this:
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I have beaten this horse before, but I see he is not dead yet, so may the beatings continue.
Opportunity is a big part of why we have inaccessible elk.
Opportunity is why billionaires are willing to buy a hunting ranch in Montana.
Opportunity is why well off Montana residents see value in leasing ranches for hunting.
If we go to chose your weapon, opportunity is cut in half and the value may no longer be worth the price of the ranch/lease.

 

[antlerradar]

We joked about how FWP messed up and issued limited entry archery tags good through the end of November. Currently limited entry rifle tag holders are allowed to hunt with archery equipment during archery season. I am all for chose your weapon state wide, but if that is a no go, the least we could do is drop the archery season from the limited entry rifle tag holders.

 

[BenInMT]

If your resume includes intimate knowledge of the issue you will never get on the committee. They seek out the inept and inexperienced.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Personally, I don't know that choose your weapon/choose your season is the best effort. We know that increased hunter pressure is making the situation worse, no doubt. We know that elk select areas that are off limits to hunters in order to be secure during those times and we know that habitat on Public Land needs some help.

Season structure is critical in terms of hunter distribution. FWP just established a choose your region approach and I think we need a few years of data to see how that is going to play out relative to hunter distribution in the LE areas.

6 months of hunting pressure is too much. We know that, and we know that elk are leaving public land during the archery season for inaccessible public. That's confirmed both anecdotally and empirically (Hamlin, Cunningham, Proffitt, Jourdonnais in the early 2000's, Wasatch study this year). Choose your region could be worthwhile, but as Ian Wargo has adeptly pointed out, R1 hunters are flocking to other regions due to a deficit in elk numbers in R1, or at least a deficit in available elk. The prime units in the Bob are not overabundant with elk like they used to be for a variety of reasons and Habitat has a big part to play in that as well as predator numbers (I don't have any studies to back this up, but that area is the center of high predator populations).

I think that before anyone adopts anything however, we need to have an objective look at how hunting seasons are structured in other states to deal with this issue, and to help inform a reasonable and thoughtful approach forward. NR hunter pressure is way up - no doubt about that. We've blown past the ideology of 90/10 & 17K for the B10's as we throw open the floodgates on cow opportunity, creating another tag rush for anyone willing to spend the money to shoot a cow.

BHA's emphasis on getting access to Elk is correct. I don't see their statement as saying we have to have access to inaccessible private land, but rather a recognition that without a management effort to ensure elk are widely distributed, we won't have the harvest success that some other surrounding states do.

1.) How do we improve hunting season structure to increase hunter success rather than just increase hunter opportunity
2.) How do we work to provide better tools to landowners to develop a more EMU wide approach to hunting distribution through Block Management & other incentives
3.) How do we make public land more appealing to elk during the general seasons
4.) How do we improve the damage hunt so that it serves wildlife, landowners and hunters better.
5.) Modifying shoulder seasons away from a shotgun approach to a more strategic use.
6.) How do you deal with those who simply don't care either way and want the elk on their trophy properties despite what the neighbors are suffering from.
7.) How do we grow more game in places where they are at lower than optimum numbers.

 

[huntin24/7]

I know most of us in MT don’t like it, but I think unit specific applications are inevitable with the rapid growth of our state and the increased popularity of western hunting. Possibly weapon specific permits becoming more necessary as well. I think this is particularly inevitable and probably overdue in areas such as the Custer. Whether it’s more trophy deer you want or more sustainable populations, these changes are going to have to come eventually. It’s just comes down to when we’re all willing to admit this and start making real changes. Obviously season structure changes will have to go along with this.

 

[Irrelevant]

Let's hold off on the nut kickin' of BHA with regard to MT elk.

You're certainly not going to read that in Bugle.

 

[runningmt]

I know most of us in MT don’t like it, but I think unit specific applications are inevitable with the rapid growth of our state and the increased popularity of western hunting. Possibly weapon specific permits becoming more necessary as well. I think this is particularly inevitable and probably overdue in areas such as the Custer. Whether it’s more trophy deer you want or more sustainable populations, these changes are going to have to come eventually. It’s just comes down to when we’re all willing to admit this and start making real changes. Obviously season structure changes will have to go along with this.

I agree, it’s long overdue.

We need limited quotas in every unit, based on elk population. Unit specific apps with a change to the season structure, maybe we still have a 5 week rifle season, but permits are good for certain time periods…….

At a certain point we can’t have the entire state a general unit for both elk and deer.

 

[BWALKER77]

Seasons need to be shortened for both gun and bow. NR tags need to be cut back. Seasons need to be staggered.

 

[8andcounting]

NR tags need to be cut back.

As well as resident tags ! Good god , you can’t give every resident hunter an otc tag for deer and elk for 11 weeks , folks dropping their bar pizza and setting their beer down cuz their buddy just came in and said he saw a muley buck or an elk cross the road while on his way into the bar , or the annual turkey day shoot. I’d be interested to see how many resident deer and elk tags get purchased turkey day weekend , I bet it’s crazy . NR tags haven’t changed much except for the amount of b tags - those should go away or be limited more , yes , but resident tags need to be limited too this sh’t show isn’t sustainable

 

[BWALKER77]

As well as resident tags ! Good god , you can’t give every resident hunter an otc tag for deer and elk for 11 weeks , folks dropping their bar pizza and setting their beer down cuz their buddy just came in and said he saw a muley buck or an elk cross the road while on his way into the bar , or the annual turkey day shoot. I’d be interested to see how many resident deer and elk tags get purchased turkey day weekend , I bet it’s crazy . NR tags haven’t changed much except for the amount of b tags - those should go away or be limited more , yes , but resident tags need to be limited too this sh’t show isn’t sustainable

Before resident tags are cut, NR tags should be cut back.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Before resident tags are cut, NR tags should be cut back.

He ain't necessarily wrong. With over 80K NR tags, and now unlimited B Tags for elk for NR's, do we really think it's not in need of addressing?

 

[BWALKER77]

He ain't necessarily wrong. With over 80K NR tags, and now unlimited B Tags for elk for NR's, do we really think it's not in need of addressing?

This is exactly it.
Many people think NR tags are limited to 17k. This simply isn't the case.

 

[Ben Lamb]

This is exactly it.
Many people think NR tags are limited to 17k. This simply isn't the case.

Apologies, almost 60,000 tags were issued to Non-residents: https://mtstandard.com/opinion/colu...cle_1071ff0c-3124-56c0-84ad-63f607c271e7.html

 

[SAJ-99]

He ain't necessarily wrong. With over 80K NR tags, and now unlimited B Tags for elk for NR's, do we really think it's not in need of addressing?

Agree, but as long as it is all addressed together. The “cut theirs but don’t cut mine” gets us nowhere.

 

[8andcounting]

Apologies, almost 60,000 tags were issued to Non-residents: https://mtstandard.com/opinion/colu...cle_1071ff0c-3124-56c0-84ad-63f607c271e7.html

I agree with u mostly - really I’d be fine with 0 b tags for NR . But resident tags need to be cut/ turned to LE and that’s a fact

 

[Ben Lamb]

Agree, but as long as it is all addressed together. The “cut theirs but don’t cut mine” gets us nowhere.

I agree with u mostly - really I’d be fine with 0 b tags for NR . But resident tags need to be cut/ turned to LE and that’s a fact

You can be in support of both, and start to work on one.

There's a growth in the outfitted cow hunt side of the business because it's an otc opportunity for residents & NR's alike. That type of structure plays into the hands of thosed who would rather profit off of the conflict rather than solve the issue. For sure, it's every landowner's right to lease to a hunt club or an outfitter, but to then turn around and complain about elk populations after being selective in harvest as to keep elk where someone wants them long enough to cash in, while ignoring the needs of their neighbors is entirely the same thing as what the Wilkes' are doing, but with a profit motive.

I understand the need to make the money, but it's a self-defeating circle of cashing in while keeping the problem at the same level.

The board's recommendations for shoulder seasons help get to a better place, IMO, but we need to think far more strategically on cow elk hunting and pressure than we have in the past. Throwing the doors wide open to an Oklahoma land rush style hunt makes the problem worse. So I'm all for limiting cow hunting & going back to the actual management of the species as opposed to what's been in place since 2015. Unlimited OTC elk tags takes us in the wrong direction, resident or not.

 

[Unlucky]

Pick your weapon and choose otc or LE.

 

[Unlucky]

All tags good for bull or cow. But get rid of damage hunts all together. Sept to nov hunting only

 

[BWALKER77]

You can be in support of both, and start to work on one.

There's a growth in the outfitted cow hunt side of the business because it's an otc opportunity for residents & NR's alike. That type of structure plays into the hands of thosed who would rather profit off of the conflict rather than solve the issue. For sure, it's every landowner's right to lease to a hunt club or an outfitter, but to then turn around and complain about elk populations after being selective in harvest as to keep elk where someone wants them long enough to cash in, while ignoring the needs of their neighbors is entirely the same thing as what the Wilkes' are doing, but with a profit motive.

I understand the need to make the money, but it's a self-defeating circle of cashing in while keeping the problem at the same level.

The board's recommendations for shoulder seasons help get to a better place, IMO, but we need to think far more strategically on cow elk hunting and pressure than we have in the past. Throwing the doors wide open to an Oklahoma land rush style hunt makes the problem worse. So I'm all for limiting cow hunting & going back to the actual management of the species as opposed to what's been in place since 2015. Unlimited OTC elk tags takes us in the wrong direction, resident or not.

I think one would see a huge improvement if we cut NR tags by 2/3rds or better and for a variety of reasons.
And I will say it again. The days of Nr's hunting all over the west is coming to a close.

 

[406dn]

Tag reductions will be far easier to sell and accept if residents and non residents share in the haircut.

Montana is so far past the day that every resident can buy an elk tag etc and hunt bull elk in the vast majority of units. It might have worked forty years ago, when I first moved here, it stopped working a good while ago.

IMO, archery seasons need a significant haircut. The generous season predates the dawn of compound bows. Using a bow with a mechanical release, with over 50% let off from the draw weight, after ranging the elk to an exact yardage is so far from using a primitive weapon. The elk should be left alone during the peak of the rut.

It won't happen, the status quo is well entrenched. The makers of archery equipment exist to sell equipment. The impetus is to make the equipment ever easier to use.