Montana Bill Set's Wolf Tag Cost

[BigHornRam]

A bill by "ultra conservative wolf hater whacko" Joe Balyeat was UNANIMOUSLY endorsed by a Senate commitee. Our wolves are going to be even more expensive than Idaho's for the non resident! Jose is going to have to pawn off his hub cap collection if he wants to hunt a wolf in Montana.


HELENA - A Senate committee unanimously endorsed legislation Thursday that would allow the hunting of wolves and grizzly bears in Montana once the animals are removed from federal protections.

The bill by Sen. Joe Balyeat, R-Bozeman, drew no opposition in a Senate Fish and Game Committee hearing, and is backed by the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks. It now goes to the Senate floor for further debate.

"Will this solve the wolf problem? Unfortunately, no. ... But I do believe it's one piece of the puzzle to try to control their numbers," Balyeat said.


Wolves were reintroduced to the northern Rockies a decade ago after being hunted to near-extinction. More than 1,200 now live in the region.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service on Monday announced plans to remove the animals from federal protections within the next year and put Idaho, Montana and Wyoming in charge of their management, although Wyoming could be excluded from that process if it can't resolve a dispute over its management plan.

Grizzlies surrounding Yellowstone National Park have been protected under the Endangered Species Act for 30 years.

But they could be removed from federal protections in a matter of months, said Chris Smith, chief of staff for Fish, Wildlife and Parks.

Balyeat's bill creates wolf hunting licenses for residents and out-of-state hunters and sets up an annual lottery for wolf and grizzly bear tags. It also establishes restitution for illegal wolf killings and includes wolves in state game wasting rules.

Wolf tags would cost $19 for residents and $350 for out-of-state hunters under the measure. Grizzly licenses are already included in state law, Smith said, and cost $50 for residents and $300 for nonresidents.

The bill drew support from several conservation groups, ranchers and outfitters as an effective management tool, something Balyeat and others said is badly needed given the growing wolf numbers and declining elk herds surrounding Yellowstone National Park.

"We've got to get moving," Sheridan rancher and outfitter Allen Schallenberger said. "We've got to get wolves delisted."

In Idaho, wolf advocates have criticized Gov. C.L. "Butch" Otter's recent announcement that he favors killing all but 100 of the state's 650 wolves in public hunts, calling it a recipe for relisting.

The bill is Senate Bill 372.

 

[Oak]

A grizzly tag for $300? The odds of drawing one will be about 20,000-1 at that price.

 

[DRAFTSTUD]

Can ya sell it? John

 

[carbonarcher]

Having been a resident of Montana whose father guided for Grizzlies, I would like them to set a trophy fee on the grizzly, in addition to the license fee. The unfortunate thing back when we could hunt them, with the quota system being so low, everyone just shot the first grizzly they saw. You'd walk into a taxidermy shop in NW Montana and you'd see 1 good 7 1/2-8 footer and 2 five foot grizzlies, cuz everyone just shot the first one they could so that they got one before the quota was filled and the season closed.

I think if they put a $1500-2000 trophy fee on the bear and kept a quota system like they used to have, you'd see more adult bears getting killed and not as many immature bears getting shot. Guys would look'em over a little closer before they shot. Yes you'd get the occasional OOPS and walking off with a small bear, but let's not forget guys are doing that right now, when they mistake a griz for a blackie. I think that would make it easier to obtain a tag, cuz some folks simply wouldn't even bother buying a tag if they knew they wouldn't be able to come up with the trophy fee. Just my .02cents.

 

[huntmt454]

That is great. Maybe i will have a wolf hanging on the wall someday. The trophy fee is way out of a lot of montanas price range. I can see a fifty or a hundred like the other trophy fees we have. But a 2000 dollar trophy fee is way to much. Hunting is already becoming a rich mans sport, i know if there is that big of a trophy fee i will never be able to get one. just my thoughts, but glad to hear about the wolf.

 

[carbonarcher]

Well maybe a better option would be a $500 trophy fee for a resident and a $2000 for a non-resident. That would still put a person MILES ahead of the dollars it would cost to kill a grizzly anywhere else. Just a thought, I just know how much it used to sicken me to see the size of some of the grizzlies killed when it was a situation where it was, kill one quick or face swallowing the tag. Just a thought.

 

[Oak]

The article says that it would be a lottery draw for licenses, not a quota system. I think that with no threat of a filled quota and closed season, guys would probably be a little more selective. You'll still have guys whacking the first one they see, though, even with a trophy fee.

 

[carbonarcher]

Oak, previously there was a lottery system as well for the grizzly tags. The lottery was for I believe 17,000 tags, and it was never an issue of whether or not you'd get your tag. Then there was a quota of 25 bears or 7 sows killed then the season would close. I think you'd be fooling yourself if there was not going to once again be a quota system of total bears killed and a closed season. And maybe your right, even with the trophy fee you'd have guys whacking small bears, but it would certainly make most guys think real hard about it first.

 

[Oak]

I wasn't aware that there used to be a lottery for tags. I wasn't trying to fool anybody, especially myself.

After thinking about it, you're probably right. There likely will be a quota system again, assuming there is another hunt.

 

[carbonarcher]

Oak, sorry, didn't mean to come off sounding all high and mighty and that you were trying to fool yourself or anyone else. I just figure Montana is going to want to sell as many of those tags as they possibly can to generate revenue, both to fight the lawsuits put forth by the anti's for allowing us to hunt the precious grizzly and the wolf, and just cuz in general most F&G depts. could use more funding. To be able to sell a large number of tags I feel most likely they will have to once again implement a quota system.

I am hopeful that if the quota system is once again used it does not include all bear deaths. Previously the quota was in place for all bear mortality, to include motor vehicle kills, putting down of problem bears, bears hit by trains, as well as hunting. That would sometime start the season with only one sow needing to be killed and season was closed. Hopefully the quota they put in place will only apply to animals killed by hunters.

 

[BuzzH]

Oak,

Carbonarcher is all full of crap.

There was NO lottery for fall grizzly in Montana. Anyone that wanted a tag could buy one over te counter and there was a trophy fee on them after they were killed...IIRC it was $35 then raised to $50 in about 1980. Lions are the same way in Montana and have been for a long time.

The last 2 years that there was a grizzly season in Montana they allowed a controversial spring season. That was on a lottery and just a handful of tags were issued...although success rates were real high.

The one thing CA is right about is that grizzlies were on a quota system. I dont believe the quotas were as high as he says either...at least not from the mid-70's until they closed it in the late 80's (last spring season was 1991). The female sub-quota was less than 7 for sure I was thinking more along the lines of 3 and a total quota of 10. It was way lower than 25 total bears. Killing 25 bears then would have been hitting them way, way, way too hard.

Also, all man-caused mortality was counted against the hunting quota. If a bear got hit by a train (which was common near Glacier), if the Fish and Game had to kill one, etc. those all counted against the quota. Some years the quota filled before the season even started.

That was another part of the controversy of the couple years of spring hunts. By killing bears in the spring, the total quotas were being exceeded by man-caused mortality.

I think MT shot itself in the foot with the 2 years of spring seasons...it drew attention to grizzly hunting and then all grizzly hunting was halted in MT.

I did apply for a spring tag, but didnt draw. The bears that were killed in the spring were excellent...one killed by Choteau was over 8 feet and about the prettiest grizzly I've ever seen. The crazy SOB that killed it, shot it with a BORROWED 30-30. He tracked it into a bruch patch and killed it at extremely close range.

To be fair to hunters...a 7 1/2-8 foot grizzly has always been pretty rare in Montana...I'd equate it to killing a 360" bull. A vast majority of MT grizzly bears will never be 7 1/2 foot ...even if they die of old age. But they are for the most part excellent colored bears. I'd kill a 6 footer in a second.

 

[carbonarcher]

BuzzH,

Once again, unprovoked you have attacked me for no real reason. There are many ways you could have gone about telling Oak that I was wrong, in your opinion, without saying I was full of crap, but instead you chose not to use an adult way of going about things. I have asked you several times not to do this and to behave like a man and you seem incapable of this, and this weekend I figured out why.

I was watching my buddies kids play with their friends kids and the little 8 year old boy suddenly called the little girl that was at the party a poo-poo head. He did it several times, before we all realized that the little boy had a crush on the little girl, and light bulb went off in my head. Unprovoked derogatory attacks from BuzzH, despite several attempts to get him to stop, hmmmmm??!! Oh great scott, you have a crush on me don't you BuzzH? That is the only thing that would explain your incredibly childish behavior. I've wondered, now why would a guy like you move from Montana to Wyoming, and this weekend it all came together, Brokeback Mountain is in Wyoming isn't it Buzz? It's all making sense now, Ramvets in Missoula just wasn't enough action for you was it, Buzz?hump

But BuzzH, I will regrettably have to continue to spurn your advances, as I am a happily married man, to my female wife of ten years, and I know that hurts you Buzz, but with time you'll learn to accept it, and I've heard there is probably a better chance for you in Wyoming anyway, as they will most likely allow gay marriage long before Montana will.

And now on to your accusations of me being full of crap and you completely contradicting my posts to Oak. Please go to http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/federal_register/fr1161.pdf to see the actual number of bears that were allowed to be killed by all human methods up until 1986.And yes it was greater than 10 bears and remanied greater than ten bears even after 1986.|oo

Also, please note that the last FALL season in Montana was scheduled for 1991, it was closed before it opened, due to the number of sows being taken by human means reaching 6. I'm sure if we look around on the internet enough, we can find that fact as well.

And to be fair to hunters of your caliber, I'm quite sure you would most likely take the first 6' grizzly you found. If you've ever hunted the Flathead national forest, specifically the North, South or Middle fork drainages of the Flathead, you would know that a 7' bear is not terrifically rare and with a little shoe leather finding one that size is not terribly difficult. Hell, most of us up there won't shoot a black bear till it reaches 6'. But I'm sure with a guy like yours natural accumen at Interior Design, you wouldn't want a gweat big gwizzly bear hide taking up to much of your decorating space anyway.

Now on to the accusation that I am wrong also about the tag being over the counter. IT WAS NOT an OTC tag. :BLEEP: Yes, everyone got one, you filled out an application, sent it in, and you got a tag. I strongly believe the LIMIT on tags was in the neighborhood of 17,000 tags, and that is why everyone got one, there were not 17,000 applicants. But unless they were doing something different down where you were from than they did in the Flathead valley, you did not go into the local Coast to Coast and simply buy your Grizzly tag. You didn't do it for Mountain Lions either, that change came later after the grizzly season went away.

So please, unless you have some truly accurate facts, I would really appreciate you not continuing to attack me. It really is unbecoming of you to do this repeatedly despite my spurning of your unwanted flirting.

 

[BuzzH]

Carbonarcher,

Please refrain from spreading misinformation then I wont have to correct you. If you think being called full of crap about your misinformation is an attack...I think you may have some mommie issues...and I can only suggest a shrink.

The number of grizzly bears allowed to be killed by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (as per the federal register) was a seperate quota than that of the quota set by the MTFWP for hunting.

Also...probably before you remember hunting in MT...if you really did hunt in MT...your OTC bear tag was good for either a grizzly or a black bear and you got one for free with the purchase of a fishing or upland bird license.

Oh, and did you forget about the trophy fee?

On the lions...up until 1976 lions were not even classified as a big-game animal in MT and could be shot on sight...no permit required.

My grandfather killed a grizzly in or around 1947-48...it was right at 7' and an ancient boar. Its a rare grizzly in MT that will ever be an 8 footer...and thats a fact.

Hey, I'm secure enough to admit flat out I'd kill a 6 foot grizzly in Montana or Wyoming if given the chance through a legal hunting season. Wall space isnt the issue...but being able to successfully hunt griz in the lower 48 is.

I did like all the gay comments though...thats awesome.

I was thinking of starting a gay outfitting business...I have the perfect name and slogan:

"Brokeback Mountain Outfitters...elk or not we'll work your ass off..."

From the tone of your posts...you'll likely be a great and repeating customer.

 

[carbonarcher]

So Buzz, per the register, was the huning quota 10 bears with three sows or not? And yes if you read the register correctly it was a seperate total, but it did not get shut down until the whole quota was reached, so should no bears be killed by any other means the entire quota could be hunted, and yes it was well over 10 bears.

But your idea for the gay outfitting business is probably right up your back alley, you should blow for it, I mean go for it. And no I did not forget the "trophy fee" and I do not recall anyone I know who killed a grizzly in the 70's or 80's ever paying one, but if you can show me somehwhere that it is written that there was one for fall grizzlies, I would humbly stand corrected, unlike yourself who after seeing the register will not admit to having been incorrect.

 

[BuzzH]

Carbonarcher,

From a little book called "track of the grizzly" by Frank C. Craighead Jr...

"since 1967 a license has been required to hunt bears in Montana (the current fee is $5 for residents and $35 for non-residents. Within ten days after killing a grizzly, the hunter is required to purchase a $25 special trophy license)."

The book was written in 1978...so from 1967 until 1978 the trophy fee was $25. I was wrong about $35...I missed it by $10...it was in fact $25. I also know that the fee was raised to $50 in I believe it was 1980. I clearly remember hunters bitching about having to pay $50 for a trophy fee on a stinking bear.

Prior to 1967 the free bear permit covered grizzly hunting and no trophy fee was required.

Grizzly hunting was stopped near Yellowstone in I believe 1967.

Wyoming was a bit different...prior to 1968 it was the same as Montana...a bear tag was free with a hunting license and included grizzly bears. From 1968-1970 no hunting was allowed then went to a limited permit system from 1971-1974 where the number of permits issued ranged from 12-24 through a lottery.

Idaho hasnt allowed grizzly hunting since 1946.

As to the quota...MTFWP in its wisdom...and they were smart for doing it...kept hunting quotas set well below the total allowed quota...both total as well as female sub-quotas. They knew they were skating on thin ice allowing a season at all...the last thing they wanted was to exceed the quota...and they didnt for the most part.

The hutnign quota through most of the 80's was less than 25 bears.

Thats why, IMO, the spring season was the downfall to hunting grizzlies in MT. They were killing bears early in the season and they had no idea how many other man-caused mortalities would happen throughout the summer and fall. The fall season made the most sense as spring-summer mortalities could be accounted for and the excess could be hunted in the fall.

I dont expect you'll admit you were wrong about the trophy fee.

Lions have had a trophy fee for a long time as well. I shot one in 1993 and it was an OTC tag and a $50 trophy fee.

 

[carbonarcher]

Actually much to your dismay, I evidently was unaware that there was a trophy fee of $25, to that I will readily admit I was wrong.

You didn't seem to mention anything about whether you were wrong or not about the total bears kill quota being only ten bears with only 3 sows however.....And as far as the 6' grizzly goes, knock yourself out, but if we ever get another chance to hunt grizzlies in the lower 48, I won't shoot a 6 footer.

Now please once again as I have asked in several previous threads, do not attack me, if you disagree with me, feel free to disagree, do not call me full of crap or treat me with disregard in any other fashion. State the corrections in an adult fashion if you can. I don't come to this site to see people referring to others as uneducated rednecks or to be told I'm full of crap. If I wanted to hear or listen to that kind of talk I'd spend more time in bars where I'd simply shut the person up in a rather abrupt fashion. Please, I believe we're all adults here, I don't believe I was the one who started behaving as if I wasn't one, I would appreciate it if you could return to behaving as an adult.

 

[BuzzH]

Carbonarcher,

I dont believe that I ever mentioned anything about a total allowable quota issued from the USFWS.

I was referring to the MTFWP and the actual quotas as they pertained to the now defunct grizzly bear season in Montana. I sure wish I would have kept some old bear hunting regulations...would solve the issue.

I'm 95% certain the MTFWP quota on grizzly bears (as stated in the BEAR regulations) was less than 25 and the sub-quota on females was I'm pretty sure 3.

I do have in my possession an application form for the 1986 MT resident big-game season...take a guess whats not on the application? No mention of applying for a special grizzly permit...I wonder why?

 

[carbonarcher]

Because it was a separate application. Do those regs say anything about the number of grizzlies that can be killed before the season is closed? As far as the number of sows, please refer to page 4 of the register, it's right across from the refernces.

 

[BuzzH]

I dont remember there being a seperate application. It doesnt make sense that there would be a quota set at 17,000 when I bet less than 1000 people even bothered to get a grizzly permit. It doesnt make sense either, when the MTFWP wasnt sure there would even be a grizzly season each year (if the man-caused quota was met prior to the fall season).

I thought, and this is from pure memory, that you did have to purchase the griz tag before the season opened. That kept the cheap-skates from waiting until they killed one before shelling out the $5 for the permit.

Its also funny I clearly remember APPLYING for the spring permits in 90 and 91...but dont recall ever applying for a fall griz tag.

As to the quotas...the MTFWP and the USFWS had different quotas. Montana could not kill more bears than the USFWS allowed...but they could set quotas that were less. I believe the USFWS quota you supplied the link for...but MT's allowable quota was less than that.

Oh, and I almost forgot...I apologize Carbonarcher for hurting your feelings by saying you were full of crap. Its just that most of the people I've known and still know, from Montana arent quite as sensitive as you. Of course the California and Washington transplants are different...they cry easily...alot like you did on this thread.

"Attacks" like that are completely off the hook.

 

[carbonarcher]

First, I'm a Montana to Washington transplant, much like you seem to be a Montana to Wyoming transplant. I'd bet a fair amount that my roots to Montana run deeper and further back than do yours but, then again I know very little about you other than the fact when presented with facts such as the register, you continue to argue around them. That and you love to belittle people from behind your computer desk. I didn't at any point cry on this thread I asked if you'd behave as an adult, a "MAN" so to speak, which you have fully demonstrated you can not.

But then again you know little about me as well, but you are brave none the less from behind your computer. But evidently if you don't remember something, than it certainly can not be so. Good for you, who was it that said if you believe an untruth, than it must be true?