Modern Sabots a rip off?

[LNGBOWFLYER]

Why do we limit our sabots bullet choices to strictly Muzzle Loader bullets? If you are like me when I stumbled upon this subject I was as perplexed as a lab at a bird farm. The reason I limited myself to only bullets packaged as ML bullets is because I didn't know any better. Most modern sabots have 1 of 2 flaws. They were either designed as a rifle bullet or a pistol bullet, given a plastic sabots , packaged as a muzzle loader bullet and then marked way up in price. If you look at many of them they are an exact replica of a hunting pistol bullet but on the pistol side of the house much much cheaper.

A Hornady SST / TC Shockwave / Barnes ( can't remember which one ) that is basically a ballistic tip style rifle bullet. Which with the rifle version its fine. The bullet has plenty of velocity to properly expand creating devastation in the organs. However with the muzzle loader version it doesn't travel fast enough to expand the bullet. So its a through and through. Meaning no expansion and little to no blood trails. Between me and my brother we shot 5 or 6 deer with this bullet. All passed clean through and all ran 100yds with little to no blood trail. We found out why when my buddy shot a bull elk at 20yds quartered to him. The bullet went through the shoulder and all through the body and lodged in the offside him. Surely at this range the SST would have expanded but it didn't. The polymers too had barely pushed in. Literally 0 expansion.

Now the ones that are copied from a pistol bullet do great but are way way way overpriced. Actually all ML bullets are overpriced and I'll show you why.

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

Pistol bullets used for hunting make great muzzle loader bullets. Often they come in calibers and weights that are very compatible for a muzzle loader barrel. Furthermore they are designed to expand and mushroom at very very low velocities. Also they are much much cheaper than their cousin packaged as a ML bullet.

Here is an example after some research we decided to use a popular pistol bullet for hunting. We went with the Deep Curl made by Speer. My bullet is a 300 grain jacketed hollow point. It has an outside diameter of .452" and is supposed to be for reloading a 454 Casul. But does awesome as a ML bullet. So far this bullet in my circle of friends after a year dropped a 6x6 bull at 30yds. He went like 30yds. At 200yds it dropped a large mule deer buck in his tracks. In both cases the bullet busted through a shoulder maintained over 90% of their weight and completely opened up and looked like a flower blossom.

As far as price goes a box of 50 bullets costs $18.29 http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/60813531-1.html. Now you have to also buy plastic sabots. I use the Black HPH/24. they cost $11.75 http://www.mmpsabots.com/. So for 50 bullets it costs you $30.04 or $0.60 a bullet. In comparison a package of 20 SST costs. $15.95 or $0.79 a bullet. It costs close to the Deep curls but doesn't work well because it doesnt expand. http://www.hornady.com/store/searchammo.php?mode=search&main_cat=252&categoryid%5B%5D=435&x=26&y=12 Barnes makes some great bullets but wow they are expensive. A package of 24 costs $33.95. Or $1.41 per bullet. The expander is a pistol bullet packaged as a ML bullet. It's a great bullet but too expensive. http://barnesbullets.myshopify.com/products/50-cal-451-300-gr-expander-mz-pack-of-24-with-sabots

If you are loyal to a certain brand of bullets than that's cool. I had never even heard of Speer Deep Curls and was skeptical. But many popular brands of bullets make a pistol bullet designed for hunting that would work very well for a ML. I encourage everyone to expand their horizons and check them out.

 

[emrah1028]

I believe Deep Curl is the "rifle bullet" equivelant as the Gold Dot, just a different name.

It's good that you bring this topic up. I've just recently started to think trying something cheaper in my T/C Icon. After reading the Hornady SST/Shockwave thread and then doing some more Google-ating, I've read similar reports about his bullet and how it fails to expand. That really sucks, as the Shockwave easily groups into an inch and a half at 100 yards with open sights for me.

I've been casting for pretty much every other caliber I own, so I'm probably going to go with the cast boolit or round ball route and try to develop a good load for those.

Emrah

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

Barnes XPBhttp://www.midwayusa.com/product/613004/barnes-xpb-handgun-bullets-454-casull-451-diameter-250-grain-solid-copper-hollow-point-lead-free-box-of-20

Barnes Buster
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/321286/barnes-buster-bullets-454-casull-451-diameter-325-grain-flat-nose-flat-base-box-of-50

Hornady XTP
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/788140/hornady-xtp-bullets-45-caliber-452-diameter-300-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-magnum-box-of-50

Speer Deep Curl
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/719430/speer-deepcurl-bullets-454-casull-452-diameter-300-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-50

Nosler JHP
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/620916/nosler-sporting-handgun-bullets-44-caliber-429-diameter-300-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100

Just a few examples for people. Also forgot to mention look up rifle bullets made for the .45-70. These bullets I have read work great for a muzzle loader as well.

 

[02bfishn]

This works great for me;
Out of my 50 cal TC Triumph Bone Collector (right at 2" @ 200 yds), economical and super clean to shoot (the powder is a little pricey). Buying the bullets per 100, and Sabots per 50 saves a bunch. Got all mine at Cabelas.

Harvester Crush Rib Sabots (.450 dia)
Hornady® .45 Caliber .451" Diameter XTP Pistol Bullet
Blackhorn 209 Muzzleloading Powder
CCI 209M primers

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

Emrah here is a thread on this same subject on another website. This guy is alot more knowledgable than I and has pictures of bullets shot into mud, specs and other info. There is some good reading.

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=77194.0

 

[StrutNut]

I converted from round ball to sabot with pistol bullets probably 15 years ago or so. I was shooting Hornady XTP bullets and they performed very well. Eventually I tried Powerbelts. Way easier to load and performed well. This past season I went back to try a sabot style with pistol bullet again and although they shot well, quickly went back to the Powerbelts. It was just a lot easier to load then the sabot/handgun bullet combos I was using. With the groups I was getting and the performance I got with Powerbelts, I doubt I will try anything again for a while.

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

Strut just curious which sabots (the pastic "cup") were you using. Because the Black HPH/24 from MMP (Modern Muzzleloading Products) work great and slide down pretty easy. Also do the same for my brother. We tried other sabots at first and as you described the bullets went down hard. But MMP makes different size sabots so once we found the correct size they went down no problem. I have a T/C Blackdiamond XTR and my brother has a Knight Bighorn.

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

Here is the ballistic data for a 300 gr Speer Deep Curl.

 

[LNGBOWFLYER]

Here's another good thread on the subject. Also some great pictures on some field tests.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/361092-science-project-report-long.html

http://hunting-washington.com/smf/index.php?topic=75690.0

 

[taxman]

I shoot the 265 gr and 325 grain flex tip bullets in both crush rib and MMP sabots. They are designed to expand properly at 1500-2000 FPS and work well. I used to shoot the 300 gr nosler parition but it is no longer made.