Minnesota Shotgun Zone going to Rifle

[DFS]

Explain your reasoning on selfishness? Trying to control others, to me, is selfish.

I'm not trying to put any trophy hunter or elite bowhunter down. I'm saying is let the trophy elite bowhunters hunt with a bow and let the rifle hunters hunt with a rifle. Everyone gets their way. Where's the selfishness in that?

Isn't it a little conflicting that the elite bowhunters want to prevent rifles so it's easier to kill a trophy with a bow? I thought the argument was it should be challenging.

For full disclosure, I haven't purchased a deer license in MN since 2021. I have only hunted deer with my nephew the last few years. So for me, the kid thing is very relevant. I have also done more archery hunting than gun hunting (turkey, elk, mule deer, coues deer, and antelope). The main reason I haven't hunted whitetails in MN is because it's not the challenge and experience I'm after. I'm just not trying to limit others ideal challenge and experience. You said it yourself "You don't know what you don't know". It's rich of you to make assumptions and put other people down for being a rifle hunter.

I wouldn’t make assumptions of who is a “rifle hunter”. There is no doubt we are killing opportunities for hunters with technology and increased efficacy. We want as many hunters in the field as we can right? No hunting at all during the rut, sign me up. That’s not going to happen so I will advocate for short range weapons such as shotguns in this case. Again I don’t have a dog in this fight but the fight translates to a movement in hunting that needs to stop.

 

[SAJ-99]

Everyone gets their way. Where's the selfishness in that?

Uh...everything.

 

[Forkyfinder]

There is no biological or herd management reason to do that.

But let me ask this of folks...which might be illuminating...what if firearm season was held BEFORE the rut?

Depends largely on land access.

The exclusive private land hunting would certainly get better (more older bucks) without a hunting season during the rut. Thats obviously very important to $ome people.

 

[BrentD]

Depends largely on land access.

The exclusive private land hunting would certainly get better (more older bucks) without a hunting season during the rut. Thats obviously very important to $ome people.

I don't see where you are coming from on this.

 

[Bowmannate2000]

Just read the last couple of pages, but firearms, even muzzleloaders during the rut is a horrible idea in my opinion. Just across the boarder, Iowa has only archery during the rut and they have much better deer herds than the same habitat in Minnesota. So far, MN excludes Xbows archery, but if that changes, then it will not be much different that firearms. Pulley bows are bad enough.

It would not bother me if they simply closed all seasons during the rut. If you want to be fair, no deer hunting at all from Nov- through Meleagris gallopavo Day would suit me just fine. Be darn interesting how THAT would affect deer and deer hunting. It would certainly level some dimensions of the playing field. How would any of you feel about that?

MN added crossbows for all to archery two years ago. Before that it was over 60 or with a doctor's note I believe.

 

[Gellar]

Depends largely on land access.

The exclusive private land hunting would certainly get better (more older bucks) without a hunting season during the rut. Thats obviously very important to $ome people.

Huh? If a private landowner was worried about that and thought that rut hunting was the limiting factor to huge bucks on their property why wouldn’t they just initiate that themselves?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Huh? If a private landowner was worried about that and thought that rut hunting was the limiting factor to huge bucks on their property why wouldn’t they just initiate that themselves?

Post in thread 'Mule deer opportunity?' https://www.hunttalk.com/threads/mule-deer-opportunity.329657/post-3989943

Think this sums it up well, from a person who was campaigning to remove the rut hunt (for md) where I live.

 

[BrentD]

Huh? If a private landowner was worried about that and thought that rut hunting was the limiting factor to huge bucks on their property why wouldn’t they just initiate that themselves?

Simple. Most landowners do not own sufficient acres to keep those bucks on just their properties. So, if you attempt to let them grow up on your acres, your neighbors will thank you as they whack them hand over foot. Everyone knows this.

 

[Gellar]

Simple. Most landowners do not own sufficient acres to keep those bucks on just their properties. So, if you attempt to let them grow up on your acres, your neighbors will thank you as they whack them hand over foot. Everyone knows this.

I’m still dumbfounded.

 

[BrentD]

Come on Forky. This just supports that a rut hunt is bad medicine for deer. It’s bad for hunters and it’s bad for wildlife. I suspect in Minnesota they are doing just fine but in the west they are struggling and it’s attitudes like yours that don’t allow changes.

Minnesota is NOT doing just fine. I have been running cell cams on my property year-round for several years now. I have seen very few bucks and not one decent buck among them. Back in Iowa, big bucks are easily picked up with fewer cameras every year, on half the acres. That is just a datuum, not data. But it illustrates what is pretty obvious to hunters. What passes for a big buck here, is pretty sad, actually.

 

[Bonasababy]

Come on Forky. This just supports that a rut hunt is bad medicine for deer. It’s bad for hunters and it’s bad for wildlife. I suspect in Minnesota they are doing just fine but in the west they are struggling and it’s attitudes like yours that don’t allow changes.

Why is it bad for wildlife again?

Again---no support for that view from Bios or season managers that I know of here.

I grant you there is a difference between MN and western states, where some critters are much more prone to leaving the county with disturbance.

The most common reason I get--which doesn't hold up--is that hunting them during the rut somehow limits breeding success. Again, no evidence to support that.

The other thing I hear is that the better genetics are taken out before they breed and can pass them on.

There too, no evidence to support that--and it ignores the genetic contribution females make anyway.

 

[DFS]

Why is it bad for wildlife again?

Again---no support for that view from Bios or season managers that I know of here.

I grant you there is a difference between MN and western states, where some critters are much more prone to leaving the county with disturbance.

The most common reason I get--which doesn't hold up--is that hunting them during the rut somehow limits breeding success. Again, no evidence to support that.

The other thing I hear is that the better genetics are taken out before they breed and can pass them on.

There too, no evidence to support that--and it ignores the genetic contribution females make anyway.

I’m being nice even giving my opinion on this. Watched it seen it lived it. Continue on your course, maybe you can start allowing military drones to get a deer when it doesn’t work out like you think. And those kids need that opportunity to compete with video games.

 

[Gellar]

Minnesota is NOT doing just fine. I have been running cell cams on my property year-round for several years now. I have seen very few bucks and not one decent buck among them. Back in Iowa, big bucks are easily picked up with fewer cameras every year, on half the acres. That is just a datuum, not data. But it illustrates what is pretty obvious to hunters. What passes for a big buck here, is pretty sad, actually.

where did you move to in Minnesota? I don’t think you are comparing apples to apples.

 

[RealMuddyboots]

Ok to set the table, PA had a third party to conduct a safety study for same exact concerns. PA retained a company that conducted military ballistics to evaluate 30-06 180gr, 12 GA 3" 250gr sabot and MZ 3 pellets 250gr sabot. Cut to the chase, the findings were the 12 GA was more inherent risk downrange, 30-06 second and MZ third. This study is used by many states for firearm safety reference now. I used it for the straight wall rifle rule in MI that I authored in 5/2009.

This study was a game changer for MI straight wall. I am quite certain there are many who feel they have better qualifications than the Ballistics Lab so the results do not meet their own narrative.

I have the full study but it is closed to 30MB so no way to post it.

But here are some summaries for those who can't sleep.

Spatial and Ballistic Analysis Conducted Pursuant to Pennsylvania

Prepared by: MountainTop Technologies, Inc. April 17, 2007 - SlideServe

Spatial and Ballistic Analysis Conducted Pursuant to Pennsylvania House Resolution 61 Relative to the Question: “Do Shotguns and Muzzleloaders Pose Less Risk than Centerfire Rifles for Hunting Deer in Pennsylvania?”. Prepared by: MountainTop Technologies, Inc. April 17, 2007.

www.slideserve.com

Deer drives rifle concerns with semi-auto shotguns are far more of a concern to me just based upon digging foxhole couple times on public land.

Also Indiana just recently went to all rifle couple years ago and so far no added safety concerns.

 

[Gellar]

Also.. if you’re arguing that properties are not big enough for herd management I would circle back to safety. A 40 acre parcel is 1/4 x 1/4 miles. I could easily sit in one tower stand and shoot well off my 40 acres. Plus if I have 2 guys on my 40 and the neighbor has 3 on his 80.

 

[Bonasababy]

Minnesota is NOT doing just fine. I have been running cell cams on my property year-round for several years now. I have seen very few bucks and not one decent buck among them. Back in Iowa, big bucks are easily picked up with fewer cameras every year, on half the acres. That is just a datuum, not data. But it illustrates what is pretty obvious to hunters. What passes for a big buck here, is pretty sad, actually.

Unless i decide to hunt at home I hunt public land exclusively. I have never seen more mature bucks than I have in the last 10 years or so. I attribute that to hunter behavior change as much as regs but we are pretty happy.

Getting into trophy desires is dangerous unless you are independently wealthy. One of the things that's different--thankfully different--in MN than Iowa and WI--our hunters fear the trophy craze acing them out from hunting places unless they can afford to pay to play. Its getting worse in southern and particularly SE MN all the time.

It's a bit broader than this but a lot of time again I see bowhunters pointing to lack of 150 plus class etc. whitetails and criticizing management, again their ultimate goals is have the rut all to themselves with no firearms allowed.

There are some things that could be tried but they are so unpopular with hunters they won't go forward with the legislature stepping in--earn a buck, for example. Party hunting is widely ingrained and supported as well.

 

[BrentD]

where did you move to in Minnesota? I don’t think you are comparing apples to apples.

No I'm not entirely comparing apples to apples. I'm further north, but still ag country, just different. Should be much better for deer. Google Wrenshall. Still pretty clear, hunting during the rut is tough for growing reasonably mature bucks. That is one thing Iowa has gotten right.

 

[BrentD]

Unless i decide to hunt at home I hunt public land exclusively. I have never seen more mature bucks than I have in the last 10 years or so. I attribute that to hunter behavior change as much as regs but we are pretty happy.

Getting into trophy desires is dangerous unless you are independently wealthy. One of the things that's different--thankfully different--in MN than Iowa and WI--our hunters fear the trophy craze acing them out from hunting places unless they can afford to pay to play. Its getting worse in southern and particularly SE MN all the time.

It's a bit broader than this but a lot of time again I see bowhunters pointing to lack of 150 plus class etc. whitetails and criticizing management, again their ultimate goals is have the rut all to themselves with no firearms allowed.

There are some things that could be tried but they are so unpopular with hunters they won't go forward with the legislature stepping in--earn a buck, for example. Party hunting is widely ingrained and supported as well.

I only hunt public unless on my own, and I have yet to see any buck even sorta maybe a trophy deer or one that could become one next year. Not one. I would not be able to count them in the same span in Iowa.

 

[Bonasababy]

I only hunt public unless on my own, and I have yet to see any buck even sorta maybe a trophy deer or one that could become one next year. Not one. I would not be able to count them in the same span in Iowa.

Know the area well.

I would suggest the public land along the border east of you and big WMA south of you. Working getting in and getting one out but there are nice deer there.

Same in the State Forest west of you. The new WMA east of the river in the town north of you might have potential too.

The deer directly around you are probably hammered by locals pretty well, at least they used to be. Even with that I saw a lot of trophies come out of private land near the State park when I worked there.

Also keep in mind the ability to see deer is generally lower in MN due to visibility differences than much of Iowa. Send me a pm if you want to chat about places I don't want to name them in any more detail on a public forum.

 

[BrentD]

Know the area well.

I would suggest the public land along the border east of you and big WMA south of you. Working getting in and getting one out but there are nice deer there.

Same in the State Forest west of you. The new WMA east of the river in the town north of you might have potential too.

The deer directly around you are probably hammered by locals pretty well, at least they used to be. Even with that I saw a lot of trophies come out of private land near the State park when I worked there.

I'm laughing.

I hunt all over for grouse and those public areas are not half as productive as my own acres, and pounded 10x harder. The number one market for lumber in this area is to build deer stands, public/private does not matter. In any event, I have not seen a trophy deer here or anywhere, or on any newspaper page or anywhere else. They ain't here. There are deer, but they are all very young.