List the native wildlife species you deem acceptable in the world.

[mevertsen]

In NZ the Minister of Conservation wants to eradicate every introduced species including trout. She began her war against the Himalayan Tahr (endangered in the Himalayas) named by kiwis "Tahrmegeddon"

These "Greenies" tend to go too far.

When I was on top of Haleakala on Maui, I was looking at the the large 3D map in the center of the visiting center. A National Park employee started a conversation with us and I asked her about some of the trails. She mentioned how this one trail had the most beautiful bamboo forest and then she suddenly stops herself and apologizes for calling bamboo beautiful because it's a non-native plant.

Okay, so riddle me this.

"Greenies" go to far by wanting to eliminate non-native species.

But, I've seen, heard, had conversations with people, who have said "kill em all" in regards to predators. Native predators.

So who's right?

Getting back to native species?

Or elimination of native species?

Reading I've done lately suggests that all native species,at least in Mevada, occurred in low numbers overall.

Domestic sheep had a two fold problem, gave disease to native sheep, and ate everything down to dirt, leaving nothing for deer.

As the sheep became less popular after WW2 (wool wasn't needed as much), cattle became more common, they just ate the grass, browse came back, and deer prospered. This also resulted in an increase in predators because the food was there now.

Weve tried everything to eliminate predators, and yet they are still here.

 

[brymoore]

Chukar

You’re dead to me.

 

[mevertsen]

You’re dead to me.

Any other argument?

This is a discussion forum remember.

Explain to me why chukar are more important than native grouse.

 

[glass eye]

Extremism on either end is not right.
Not much of a riddle.

 

[mevertsen]

Extremism on either end is not right.
Not much of a riddle.

Wouldn't "greenies" be an extreme statement?

Point is this.

Ive posted this question on a couple forums.

Responses I've received have been interesting.

But no one has actually answered my questions in the OP.

Edit. I guess there have been a couple direct responses to the questions.

 

[mevertsen]

Here's the gist of it all.

We as sportsmen can't decide on a single forum can't even list what are the most important native species to focus on.

We are overrun by non native and feral species all over the US.

Hogs, horses, various big game and bird species which were introduced as long as 125 years ago, with only the thought of them being an eventual target in mind.

They didn't look at ecological impact, or even consider what the potential side effects might be in the future. They just did it.

Same goes for the livestock industry around 1900 and up through the World Wars.

Reports of hundreds of thousands of sheep and cattle decimating the landscape. Leaving nothing for native species.

If we can't even put a list together on this forum, how do we sell the idea to the general public, governors, game commissions, etc, that restoring or putting effort into certain species is more important?

My conclusion, specific to Nevada, is we need to graze the cheat grass with cattle, get rid of the domestic sheep on public lands, get rid of the feral horses, as they were not native here, and focus on bringing back native species such as bighorn sheep, mule deer, grouse species, elk, where they seemed most likely to be residents. And focus less on any non native species.

 

[Elktrack]

Any other argument?

This is a discussion forum remember.

Explain to me why chukar are more important than native grouse.

How are chukars negatively impacting native grouse? Seems like the two cohabitate just fine.

 

[mevertsen]

How are chukars negatively impacting native grouse? Seems like the two cohabitate just fine.

Not so much that they impact native grouse.

But I am curious (would have to do a lot of digging in more books) what impact the chukar have had on other native species in general. A question I don't even have a theory for, but just came.to my mind.

Other than we put more effort into production of chukar than we do grouse.

We have tons of guzzlers in NV for chukar.

We have a forecast for chukars every year.

We see very little in the way of information gathering, beyond wing collection barrels, for grouse.

Although any improvement for deer would help sage grouse as well, so they go hand in hand.

We have a chukar foundation.

We have a chukar tournament.

Why are chukar more popular and get more attention than grouse and quail?

 

[Deleted member 16864]

Awesome. Start with wild horses, zebra mussels and leafy spurge. Once those are eliminated we can talk about eliminating chukar.

 

[glass eye]

Here's another extreme statement "TROLL"
Over & Out

 

[El Jason]

Any other argument?

This is a discussion forum remember.

Explain to me why chukar are more important than native grouse.

They aren’t more important.

This is a subject I’ve thought about a lot. Chukar are completely non-native and also very near and dear to me. More so than pheasants.

I think it’s worth looking holistically. Is there a competition for habitat with a native species? If so, how much does it affect the native species?

Guzzlers are an artificial supplement for chukars. They also benefit native species, so we then circle back to cost vs reward.

I doubt chukars compete with native grouse and quail at all. Therefore, I fail to see any need to remove them.

 

[mevertsen]

Here's another extreme statement "TROLL"
Over & Out

No. Im not a troll.

Ive been here years. Helped out many people. Have my name all over.

Simply asking questions.

You, however, are the only one in this thread to resort to name calling.

 

[mevertsen]

They aren’t more important.

This is a subject I’ve thought about a lot. Chukar are completely non-native and also very near and dear to me. More so than pheasants.

I think it’s worth looking holistically. Is there a competition for habitat with a native species? If so, how much does it affect the native species?

Guzzlers are an artificial supplement for chukars. They also benefit native species, so we then circle back to cost vs reward.

I doubt chukars compete with native grouse and quail at all. Therefore, I fail to see any need to remove them.

Holistic approach makes sense

 

[El Jason]

Other than we put more effort into production of chukar than we do grouse.

In what way?

We have tons of guzzlers in NV for chukar.

See above. This benefits multiple native species.

We have a forecast for chukars every year.

So?

We see very little in the way of information gathering, beyond wing collection barrels, for grouse.

Wing collection is a standard for age classification of harvested grouse. What more are you looking for?

Although any improvement for deer would help sage grouse as well, so they go hand in hand.

Guzzlers benefit sage grouse

We have a chukar foundation.

So?

We have a chukar tournament.

So?

Why are chukar more popular and get more attention than grouse and quail?

People like them more? Isnt less attention on harvesting the native species a good thing?

 

[mevertsen]

In what way?

Guzzlers, forecast, all kinds of things to promote chukar more

See above. This benefits multiple native species.

Very few guzzlers ive seen for chukar are in areas where other game species benefit. Steep draws, near rocks, and with covers which prevent larger species from using them.

So?

Point is to that above, more effort into the chukar than native species.

Wing collection is a standard for age classification of harvested grouse. What more are you looking for?

We seem to collect data alot on native species, but we dont seem to do much with it. Why are we collecting data, rather than making an effort to propagate the species

Guzzlers benefit sage grouse

Not most of the ones I've seen for chukar. They were put in place specifically for chukar and are in places not as favorable for sage grouse.

So?

So?

Again, its just leads to the question of why a native species is seemingly less important than a native species.

People like them more? Isnt less attention on harvesting the native species a good thing?

To a point yes.

But to that point, there's also no effort to make sure they are doing well.

But then again, we've been "loving " mule deer, foundations, projects, money out the wazoo, and yet tbe decline continues across the west.

 

[El Jason]

Guzzlers, forecast, all kinds of things to promote chukar more

How much does this cost, and how much license revenue is brought in by chukar hunters? Does this revenue allow for other projects that benefit natives?

Very few guzzlers ive seen for chukar are in areas where other game species benefit. Steep draws, near rocks, and with covers which prevent larger species from using them.

YMMV, but I often find other game animal tracks around guzzlers

Point is to that above, more effort into the chukar than native species.

How much effort do the natives require?

We seem to collect data alot on native species, but we dont seem to do much with it. Why are we collecting data, rather than making an effort to propagate the species

Are the native species suffering?

Not most of the ones I've seen for chukar. They were put in place specifically for chukar and are in places not as favorable for sage grouse.

Are the guzzlers harming natives?

Again, its just leads to the question of why a native species is seemingly less important than a native species.

Are they less important? Or do they not require much in the way of management? Forest grouse are fairly self sustaining in the west.

To a point yes.

But to that point, there's also no effort to make sure they are doing well.

Are you sure?

But then again, we've been "loving " mule deer, foundations, projects, money out the wazoo, and yet tbe decline continues across the west.

 

[mevertsen]

How much does this cost, and how much license revenue is brought in by chukar hunters? Does this revenue allow for other projects that benefit natives?

Unknown in this, as Nevada went away from stamps. So its just a license. Hard to say how many people buy the license just to hunt chukar.

As a side note, another issue going on regarding non residents and hounds, but numbers are lacking on how many buy lion tags specifically to hunt with dogs.

YMMV, but I often find other game animal tracks around guzzlers

Around guzzlers in general, yes.

Around the guzzlers around, here, they have specifically been built for chukar. Deer csnt use them, and they are not in places sage grouse would normally go. (No or limited forest habitat around here)

How much effort do the natives require?

question comes to mule deer and pronghorn for example.

The NAPF was started by the effor of a lot of people on this forum because there was no "voice" for the pronghorn.

Are the native species suffering?

Again for the sage grouse, hard to say? From the 1980s? Certainly. But where and what is the baseline for the population. This goes for all native species really.

Are the guzzlers harming natives?

I actually do wonder this. Harming natives directly? No. But, we have put a lot of guzzlers, big and small game in areas devoid of water. And in places inundated with horses. And then we've introduced (elk primary) animals into areas where they didn't historically spend a bunch of time. (Not non-native, but i frequent users of the land)

Its created quite a mess. Again, horses certainly a bigger issue for the habitat.

Are they less important? Or do they not require much in the way of management? Forest grouse are fairly self sustaining in the west.

Same question with pronghorn. Everything seems to be self sustainable, until its not. Then were scrambling. But again, where's the baseline?

Are you sure?

In regards to the effort? Yup. We adjust season dates and limits for chukars and huns all the time.

Sage grouse do get adjusted, some areas added some eliminated.

Forest grouse just seems to be a formality for a season.

 

[mevertsen]

In regards to the forest grouse.

Ive never put a substantive effort into hunting them.

Same with sage grouse.

But if it came to a decision to be made, and a magic wand could be waved, I absolutely would favor the native grouse over non native birds.

Now I need to find a book that talks more about native birds species in Nevada.

 

[El Jason]

Sorry, we are shifting baselines a little too much here.

 

[El Jason]

In regards to the forest grouse.

Ive never put a substantive effort into hunting them.

Same with sage grouse.

But if it came to a decision to be made, and a magic wand could be waved, I absolutely would favor the native grouse over non native birds.

Now I need to find a book that talks more about native birds species in Nevada.

And what is the benefit? How are chukars impacting native grouse?