Initiative to Eliminate MT Outfitter Sponsored Licenses

[Meatatarian]

Anybody else see this article?

http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_99c5188c-d4d8-11de-b5dc-001cc4c002e0.html

 

[ringer]

Good move IMO. Get rid of all financial incentives to manage big game tags and the people of the state and their kids will be better off. I am against all private tags period including any landowner tags.

 

[mtmiller]

Kurt Kephart
Public Wildlife
911 John Drive
Billings, MT 59101
Phone: (406) 248-7050
E-Mail [email protected]

 

[Blue Yummies]

Would this kill the block management areas??

 

[shoots-straight]

Not necessarily, you increase the average tag price for NR, increase the tag price from R hunters and come aways with enough for block.

 

[Sytes]

IMO, and this is just a skim off the surface understanding of this issue:

Outfitters are working for a living. Montana should continue to support such. We MUST ensure Montana resident employees have a sure deal for keeping business running in our state... Though we need to ensure it is properly regulated to keep #'s in check, etc.
Now, I am 100% for jacking up prices on non res tags... Obviously, I have never bought a non res tag for Montana - I take it is refundable if they do not succeed in drawing a tag?

I was stunned! to see how many regions / districts had drawings slammed! Areas where i had a deer B tag OTC... to drawings in areas where the qty given has been cut to 1/5th the qty from last year! Hell, there is NO shortage of does in Montana - why the heck??? This is my main freezer for the year if I miss my elk! That tee's me off - though that is aside the point of this thread - heh, a bit of a de-rail.

Anyhow - More strict regulation on Outfitters... though keep them with guarenteed tags for non residents. I would go even further - to stipulate Outfitters and employees - MUST be RESIDENTS of Montana... if we are to continue offering non drawing based non res tags for their business. After all - this is a direct effect on montana resident employment, survival - Family well being and health we are speaking about. I would never oppose such!

BTW - Block management does not permit outfitters to guide for profit.

 

[mtmiller]

Somebody else take this one, my head hurts.

 

[schmalts]

Sytes, The outfitters need the outfitter sponsored tags to survive with a 60% chance of drawing a tag?
Sounds like they need to get into a different line of work that does not need government welfare to survive. Someone should sit you down with some beers and teach you about fair hard earned hunting rather than state handouts for the poor outfitters and rich clients. I will be hunting MT for the 5th year in a row and did not need an outfitter sponsored tag, just a will to go and apply and use the alternate list if I did not draw. Guess what, I still can hire a babysitter if I want after I drew my tag the fair way, that had no discrimination

 

[Nemont]

Personally I feel that they should increase the price residents pay. It is time for the resident hunters of this state to pay more for their own access. It is not good policy to look to NR hunters to pay the for our access. For as long as we expect NR outfitted hunters to fund our access outfitters will always be able to cry about it, we are giving them the issue they use to beat up the legislature every session.

The pro business arguement is also used every session to give away more and more. If you are truly free enterprise pro business then you should encourage competition not limit it. Let hunters compete on a level field for tags and the let the outfitter compete for the hunters business. That would be pro business.

It is largely a falacy that simple by eliminating guaranteed outfitters tags there magically more private land would be open to hunters however there is a deeper issue of fairness IMO. Everyone should have equal chance to compete for licenses and then those who drew should be allowed to decide if they wish to employ and outfitter or not. That is free enterprise and what built this country and it is fair to everyone not just the wealthy.

Nemont

 

[schmalts]

When the residents of MT realize that the outfitters cause them LOSS of hunting areaa BECAUSE OF LEASES, they will maybe see that outfitter sponsered tags are not such a great thing. It is good to see guys like Fin, Nemont and Miller who are embarrassed by what they pay for the hunting they do because the state relies on NR to flip too much of the tab for them.

 

[Sytes]

Sytes, The outfitters need the outfitter sponsored tags to survive? with a 60% chance of drawing a tag?
Sounds like they need to get into a different line of work that does not need government welfare to survive

Hmmm... Between you and MTMiller - I may not be understanding.

You call it gov't welfare - I call it supporting / protecting Montana residents. I do not believe I stated Outfitters get 60% chance for a tag... I think they should be given X amount of tags to ensure stability of our employed residents. It is simply good business sense for Montana.
With regard to the ratio of NR privately gaining a tag vs an outfitter sponsored NR tag - It would be interesting to see the qty of both sides... and factor in the costs attributed to both sides.
With regards to Gov't statement - that is a broad comment... I take it Montana Department of Transportation regulating weight loads on highways.. etc is too much gov't? If so - I understand your point - we just disagree.

I know sarcasm is the name of the game in public chat forums... ease up. MTMiller - if your head hurts enough - cheers, save your time and typing skills for a more worthy post...

 

[ringer]

We have been fighting off private tags for decades here and it is like a cancer. NM has them and I asked the F&G people how many landowner cow tags were punched. Answer was most were thrown away. Kind of blows the damage argument. If you get rid of private tags you will still sell every NR tag you have and the ones that wanted an outfitter before will still hire one. If you care about the ability of your residents to hunt as a family regardless of their income then you need to get rid of them and the people making money on the tags can adapt. You are letting a handful of people sell your grandkid's animals. Private tags do limit access. May not open it up much at first but if damage is a real issue then ranchers will eventually become hunter friendly again. That's the way I see it.

 

[Nemont]

Hmmm... Between you and MTMiller - I may not be understanding.

You call it gov't welfare - I call it supporting / protecting Montana residents. I do not believe I stated Outfitters get 60% chance for a tag... I think they should be given X amount of tags to ensure stability of our employed residents. It is simply good business sense for Montana.
With regard to the ratio of NR privately gaining a tag vs an outfitter sponsored NR tag - It would be interesting to see the qty of both sides... and factor in the costs attributed to both sides.
With regards to Gov't statement - that is a broad comment... I take it Montana Department of Transportation regulating weight loads on highways.. etc is too much gov't? If so - I understand your point - we just disagree.

I know sarcasm is the name of the game in public chat forums... ease up. MTMiller - if your head hurts enough - cheers, save your time and typing skills for a more worthy post...

I guess elkchsr changed user names.

What costs are you trying to compare between "NR privately gaining a tag vs an outfitter sponsored NR tag" and what on earth does that have to do with the Montana dept of transportation?

Who is guaranteed stable markets and employment? You say this is protecting Montana residents, protecting them from what? Do you know a single Montana resident that makes their full time living from guiding or outfitting? Also why should those Montanan's be more important then the remaining residents who don't outfit? Why shouldn't the state use state owned resources to make a more stable business environment for contractors and their carpenters?

Nemont

 

[oleefish2]

Wyoming does not support outfitter tags, but does ensure that nonresidents do have a chance at a set % of all licenses issued. Also after the resident drawing everyone nonresidents and residents have the same chance for those tags. Does it ruin outfitter business? I have known a few and it truly depends on their reputation, I believe. If they are in high demand because of how they operate their business they seem to strive and flourish. It is probably hardest on new operations and how many people try to book their services. One of the operations I know has a waiting list every year and so if one person does not draw they have others to take their places. Raising prices, is fine but there are families that want meat not horns/antlers and with the cost of harvesting a game animal anymore tag price can become an issue to. If we need our sport to flourish and continue we cannot priced our young folks out of the opportunity. olefish

 

[Blue Yummies]

Raising the price of tags for residents??
I am already paying $200 for gas
Groceries $100
Blue yummies $300
Ammo $50
Hotel for 3 nights $200
Butcher $150
Local Bar bill $200
Battling with tons of people on Block....priceless
And now you want to jack up the tag price for residents makes sense Nemont.

Does anyone have the figures on what the outfiitter money brings in?? And how much
would you have to raise the tag price to match the outfitter money? Would raising
the price drop the number of applicants?

 

[Blue Yummies]

I Do you know a single Montana resident that makes their full time living from guiding or outfitting? Also why should those Montanan's be more important then the remaining residents who don't outfit? Why shouldn't the state use state owned resources to make a more stable business environment for contractors and their carpenters?

Nemont

I like to flyfish "The main reason I came to MT" and was talking to some fishing guides
and that is all they do is guide fisherman, I asked them if they make enough to not find another job and they said there whole lodge doesnt have to work the off-season.

So find another route nemont

 

[shoots-straight]

Outfitters are working for a living. Montana should continue to support such. We MUST ensure Montana resident employees have a sure deal for keeping business running in our state... Though we need to ensure it is properly regulated to keep #'s in check, etc

Sytes, I'm a General Contractor, my profession is 100 times more important to the economy than that of the outfitting industry. No where is there a law that of 100 homes or businesses built, that 60% have to built by registered contractors. We get our work because of reputation, and quality of work performed. Capitalism at it's finest. When you start subsidising industries or businesses someone else gets hurt. In this case the resident and NR hunters that would rather Do It Your self! If the outfitting Industry can't hold clients because of the service they provide then they should move on.

 

[Nemont]

Against my better judgement I will attempt to explain to the resident drunk how much it would cost resident hunters to replace every single dollar Outfitter Sponored License raises.

Montana's Block Management Program budget is about $3.5 million dollars annually, there are some Pittman-Robertson Funds included but about $3 million comes directly from the Outfitter Sponored Guaranteed licenses.

There are approximately 135,000 individual resident licenses sold every year in Montana if each resident hunter contribued $30 more we would have an extra million to go towards funding block management and not be beholden to the Outfitting industry. 135,000 x $30 = $4,050,0000 annually.

To put it in terms you can understand: a 10% reduction in your Blue Yummie consumption would more then offset every dollar Outfitted Non Resident hunters pay to fund block management. That is hardly jacking up the price on residents.

So you spend $1,200 for a 3 day hunt as a resident hunter? Yet you want to bitch about a $30 increase or 2.5% increase in the cost of your three day hunt to pay for more access? You are part of the problem not the solution.

Nemont

 

[Nemont]

I like to flyfish "The main reason I came to MT" and was talking to some fishing guides
and that is all they do is guide fisherman, I asked them if they make enough to not find another job and they said there whole lodge doesnt have to work the off-season.

So find another route nemont

I think the fly fishing gig is a far different animal then the big game outfitting gig. Do you know any big game outfitters who don't do something else? This thread is about big game outfitting not Orvis outfitted gay fisherfairies.

Nemont

 

[Blue Yummies]

Thats right Shoots-straight builds houses for out-of-staters, who
just bought a chunk of ground from a rancher who sold his whole ranch and
now the place you used to hunt deer is now a subdivision. By being a
contractor you are doing alot for hunting, keep up the good work