Idaho won't recognize Record book Ram killed by Tribal Hunter

[idahohuntr]

https://www.wral.com/state-refuses-to-recognize-bighorn-as-biggest-ever-for-idaho/18416204/

Interesting article - Idaho will not recognize the largest ram killed in Idaho as a State record because it was not harvested under state regulations. Boone and Crockett club does recognize the record ram.

Anyways, an interesting story following lots of discussion on the Herrera case. I'm not particularly concerned about this as the State is free to choose the animals they recognize in their record books - and Tribes are not going to get too excited about being perceived as trophy hunters.

The unfortunate part is the Tribal hunter caught a lot of grief for his harvest (it was killed in a GMU closed to state hunters). Given the efforts of the Nez Perce Tribe to protect and restore Bighorn Sheep in an area they've hunted for 10,000 years I was disappointed to see all the anger and criticism directed his way. The Nez Perce Tribe has been a strong advocate for protecting sheep and sheep habitat...far more of an advocate than the state of Idaho's elected 'leaders'.

 

[PrairieHunter]

Interesting talk about tribal hunting rights in that article. We are likely getting ready to see the same in the bighorns.

As far as the tribes not being trophy hunters. From the article.

Sublett said he has used the treaty rights to hunt bighorns in Hells Canyon and some neighboring areas since the mid-1970s. He said he has killed 10 bighorns and that nine of them rank as trophies by scoring more than 180 points in Boone and Crockett scoring.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

I have a hard time feeling bad for a guy who has harvested 10 bighorn rams. Native or an invader like me....Lol.
But I dont think he deserves the grief from anyone for just doing what he is permitted to do.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

My thoughts are at the end of the day who cares about the state records? The only record books I ever read are Boone and Crockett or Pope and Young... To me it sounds like the hunter isn't too disappointing in the outcome either.

 

[rmauch20]

Good for Idaho.

Poor guy maybe one of the next ten he kills won’t be in violation of game laws.

 

[NR_Hunter]

Scoring, judging, and recording wildlife by size has always brought out the best in people

 

[mtmander]

only in the news because it scores a lot

 

[Bambistew]

Interesting that B&C recognizes it. Here in AK, the hunts that are conducted by natives/locals on lands only open to qualified federal subsistence hunters are not eligible for B&C. Seems a bit strange they accept one but not the other. They seem like very similar circumstances.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

Interesting that B&C recognizes it. Here in AK, the hunts that are conducted by natives/locals on lands only open to qualified federal subsistence hunters are not eligible for B&C. Seems a bit strange they accept one but not the other. They seem like very similar circumstances.

but don't you have to destroy all trophy aspects of your kill while on a subsistence hunt in AK? That's my memory of it, for bou you have to destroy the antlers etc.

 

[Sytes]

10 Rams...

How about next time at boy scout camp, we'll give the young native boy scout 10 additional pinewood derby tweeks and runs and we'll see how the scoring works...

Good on B&C for recording the ram. It is after all a record. And good on Idaho for defining their record parameters.

 

[Doublecluck]

Edit: it would be cool to hunt where everyone else can’t.

 

[SD_Prairie_Goat]

I have exactly the same amount of respect for this guy as I do for the auction tag hunters.

Why because you can't get either of those tags, so you don't like the hunters who can?

 

[antlerradar]

Because he has found a legal way to cut in line just like the auction tag hunters.

 

[Bambistew]

but don't you have to destroy all trophy aspects of your kill while on a subsistence hunt in AK? That's my memory of it, for bou you have to destroy the antlers etc.

"Subsistence" has a couple different forms in Alaska. You are either qualified for Federal Subsistence by where you live, or you don't... and rules and regulations only apply to Federal lands. However all residents are eligible for "State" subsistence hunts, on State lands. They usually make the State requirements somewhat onerous in order to make it less appealing to non-local residents. For example, trophy destruction, or only offering permits for a short time a month before the season starts, and they must be picked up in person in some far off village that would cost you $1500 to get there and back... Basically giving preference to the locals, but not excluding those that really want it and are willing to spend the time and money to get the permit...

I don't know the federal regs inside and out (because I don't qualify), but as far as I know none require destruction of the trophy except for caribou in unit 23 (Kotzebue area), and I think its only if you want to sell any part of the antlers. I think its a fairly new reg. I think they can only sell sheds or something screwy. No antlers can be sold attached to the skull from any hunt, or pickup (that's a state and fed regulation).

The only hunts I'm aware of that require(ed) destruction were state run subsistence hunts. The caribou antler destruction was a requirement in Unit 13 (north of Anchorage) about 10-15 years ago, they required the antlers to be cut off skull, or split to destroy the Boone and Crockett "value." There are a couple moose hunts that require, the top off a palm cut off and returned to ADFG. Its an any bull hunt, and coincidentally is a registration hunt in a "coveted" trophy moose unit. I'm not sure if they still require cutting the tips off a muskox for the registration hunt anymore. I don't follow muskox hunting regs. Those are the only ones I'm aware of for trophy destruction.

I know of a handful of 175+ dall sheep that were killed in Wrangell Park, that can not be entered. Maybe its because the areas are not open to everyone, or because its a national park? I don't believe that the sheep killed in the preserve can be entered either if they were shot on a federal subsistence permit. The federal subsistence permits generally have a more lenient bag limit/requirement and season as well.

 

[Firedude]

Good for Idaho. If you play by a different set of rules you don't get the same honors. I'm no trophy hunter but I understand what it means to get a monster fair chase, legal, and on the same playing field as others.

 

[LopeHunter]

Who lived where over the 25,000 years man has walked North America was a shifting, migrating, violent and hazardous series of events. There was a significant migration westward by native Americans that began as European settlers arrived. This led to violence. Europeans did not invent the concept of conquer and displace.

Tribes were displaced from lands they had held for generations. Such is the way of humans. If a lack of food or water developed or if there was flooding or fire or shifts in migration of animals shifts then leading a tribe into another occupied area is the choice or starve. Violence is often how issues were settled and are settled.

The U.S. Government was murderous at times. The government negotiated in bad faith but did negotiate. The tribes involved may have only been in that area for the most recent two hundred years or so. In any event, one side was conquering and could have erased every tribe from North America if that was its focus.

The concept of nations inside of other nations is not working. Social issues are often magnified at these nations within a nation. That model was a failure 50 years ago and remains so today. The path forward is assimilation. The issue of hunting rights should dissolve in that process. Land held by these nations should be dispersed to the members either by parcel or as shares in a land company that then can sell or develop the land.

The nations within nations never thrived and destroying the bulk of the next few generations out of stuborness is doing those children no favors.

 

[Firedude]

Who lived where over the 25,000 years man has walked North America was a shifting, migrating, violent and hazardous series of events. There was a significant migration westward by native Americans that began as European settlers arrived. This led to violence. Europeans did not invent the concept of conquer and displace.

Tribes were displaced from lands they had held for generations. Such is the way of humans. If a lack of food or water developed or if there was flooding or fire or shifts in migration of animals shifts then leading a tribe into another occupied area is the choice or starve. Violence is often how issues were settled and are settled.

The U.S. Government was murderous at times. The government negotiated in bad faith but did negotiate. The tribes involved may have only been in that area for the most recent two hundred years or so. In any event, one side was conquering and could have erased every tribe from North America if that was its focus.

The concept of nations inside of other nations is not working. Social issues are often magnified at these nations within a nation. That model was a failure 50 years ago and remains so today. The path forward is assimilation. The issue of hunting rights should dissolve in that process. Land held by these nations should be dispersed to the members either by parcel or as shares in a land company that then can sell or develop the land.

The nations within nations never thrived and destroying the bulk of the next few generations out of stuborness is doing those children no favors.

You should read Dr. Dennis Stanford's book, "Accross Atlantic Ice." There's him explaining the readers digest version on YouTube. It should taught in schools but it disrupts the accepted history. Could you imagine the social fallout if it became common knowledge that ice age Europeans where here first?

 

[TheTone]

The unfortunate part is the Tribal hunter caught a lot of grief for his harvest (it was killed in a GMU closed to state hunters). Given the efforts of the Nez Perce Tribe to protect and restore Bighorn Sheep in an area they've hunted for 10,000 years I was disappointed to see all the anger and criticism directed his way. The Nez Perce Tribe has been a strong advocate for protecting sheep and sheep habitat...far more of an advocate than the state of Idaho's elected 'leaders'.

Most of the discontent regarding this ram was due to just how visible he really was. It was pretty easy to take a jetboat ride up the snake and see this ram and a number of other large rams he commonly ran with. I can't think it was much of a hunt being as how he would at times stand on the beach and basically let you boat up to him and the fact it was apparently taken out whole. The unit was open to state hunters for 2 years (after this ram was killed) which resulted in state hunters killing two rams, the majority of the others are also gone and most likely killed by tribal members. The state closed the unit this year due to a lack of rams.

The tribe might advocate for sheep and habitat but they have been hammering them hard the past few years in Idaho, WA, and OR. As for preserving habitat, buying up land and posting no trespassing signs doesn't due much to help the public out.

I also heard B&C had this ram briefly displayed at the WSF convention this spring but then put it away due to people being pretty unhappy with it. I'm not sure what or why B&C is interested in it.

 

[BrentD]

You should read Dr. Dennis Stanford's book, "Accross Atlantic Ice." There's him explaining the readers digest version on YouTube. It should taught in schools but it disrupts the accepted history. Could you imagine the social fallout if it became common knowledge that ice age Europeans where here first?

Can you imagine the fame and fortune to any researching anthropologist who could prove it?

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Could you imagine the social fallout if it became common knowledge that ice age Europeans where here first?

Lol none... not sure how humans coming to NA from Europe 12,000 years ago versus Asian 20,000 years ago has any bearing on the current conservation.