Idaho Steelheaders Robbed of $1.6 Billion

[JoseCuervo]

Dams have robbed Idahoans of a valuable fishing resource

Here is an opinion from a board member of the Idaho Steelhead and Salmon Unlimited. One of those "fringe" groups that is working to make sure I have Steelhead and Salmon to catch in My Own Private Idaho.

Breach 'Em and Reel 'Em...........

 

[BuzzH]

Elkgunner, heres some other news from an article I recently had the great pleasure of reading in regard to the great status quo plan of salmon/steelhead recovery:

"The federal government still seems to believe the Columbia River salmon plan is 'on track,' but it is clearly in denial," said Glen Spain of Pacific Coast Federation of Fishermen's Associations, one of several plaintiffs in the case.

The court rule did not just rule the plan illegal and not on track, Spain said, but found that "many of the tracks do not even exist."

A report by the advocacy group Save Our Salmon, which was released in February, found that federal agencies received half of the funding required by the plan and accomplished less than 30 percent of the work.

The estimated cost of full implementation is some $900 million annually for 10 years - in 2002, the plan received some $439.8 million."


I sure hope all the salmon haters on this board have some deep pockets. The very least the latest ruling will lead to is full funding of salmon recovery for the duration of the GDubyaBushit years. Wow, just a little shy of a billion a year, when all they would have to do is breach 4 dams for a fraction of that cost...

The tax payers are being duped and they're smiling and taking it dry the whole time! Wow! How can the sheeple be so stupid?

 

[cjcj]

sheeple! yes there are a lot of them, sound`s like you [buzz]listen to mike savage, but i don`t see where there are any SALMON HATER`S on this board.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Yep, tear out all of the dams, that will clean up all of the ills of society!!!

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzzy,

You, gunner, and it are a joke. According to you guy's if a person is not an enviromental extremist, then they are anti enviroment. If a person is opposed to dam breaching, then they are a salmon hater.

O. K. you won me over to the dam breaching side of the fence. I just can't live with myself knowing that you think I hate salmon. So let's get on with it and breach them all. I just don't want to hear any whimpering from you guys after the fact when you are all jobless, homeless, cold, hungry and in the dark.

Paul

 

[JoseCuervo]

CJCCJCJCJCJ,

Unfortunately with Salmon issues in Idaho, you are either working to save the salmon, or you are against the salmon. Inaction will finish off these nearly extinct runs. Proper action may save the runs. Frequently on these issues there can be a middle ground, but on this one, nobody has found it yet.

We have a lake here, high in the Sawtooths that is called Redfish Lake. Incredibly beautiful, and very visited (I hate it, too many people...) that has a return of Sockeye Salmon (ie.. Redfish). The agencies trying to manage this Salmon run can count on one hand (some years they need both hands) the number of fish returning.

With many of the wild salmon runs in Idaho, there is not a middle ground, you either work like hell to save them, or you lose them.

Paul,
Welcome aboard, let me be the first to welcome you over to the RIGHT side. Glad to see you could make the trip over from the Dark side...

No whimpering from me. I will have plenty of smoked salmon to keep me fed, and for heat, shelter, and fire, I fully plan to cut lots of logs on public lands. Again, welcome aboard....

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, glad you finally saw the light.

Dont worry, there will be exhaustive mitigation to deal with the loss of a few jobs, irrigation to 13 corporate farms, and a more efficient and cheaper grain transport system out of Lewiston...plus the US taxpayer wont have to keep paying for a salmon recovery plan that doesnt work. Win-Win deal.

 

[cjcj]

ElkGGGGGGGGGGGGunner that may be the problem! your thinking there is no middle ground. i don`t care what the issue is if there are two opposing side`s then there HAS to be a compromise [middle ground ] or nothing will happen, unless one side destroy`s the other then thing`s will just stay the same good or bad.

 

[BuzzH]

cjcj, sorry bud, you're wrong, there is not middle ground.

The middle ground was squashed flat by promises of hatcheries, rates of returns that would assure salmon/steelhead runs, etc.

The people of the Columbia River Basin, the anglers, commercial fishermen, Tribes, etc. were promised things that have never been delivered, not even close. That was the "middle of the road" and the compromise for dam building. We (the above mentioned) were stupid to buy that steaming pile of a compromise...

What we've gotten since the dams are every run of wild anadromous fish in Idaho making the Endangered Species list, loss of fishing and fishing revenue, loss of jobs to communities, lawsuits, legal battles, a couple billon tax dollars spent on "fixing" the problems that we were assured wouldnt happen if they built dams, and the list goes on and on.

Even more troubling is the lawsuits that are sure to "net" (pun intended) the tribes money in the hundreds of billions if we keep the status quo approach to salmon/steelhead mismanagement.

The whole time folks like you are screaming for more compromise...bottom line is there is no more room to compromise. If the anadromous fish and their supporters compromise anymore, there wont be a single freaking salmon or steelhead left, its beyond middle ground, its a crisis. Tell those 3 sockeye that return every year to redfish lake that they should "compromise".

Apparently you've not been reading the various articles, reports, etc.?

 

[Ithaca 37]

The middle grounders finally got fed up with being lied to on so may of these issues they drew a line in the sand. That's the only way to deal with the problem, as Marvel has shown us.

 

[JoseCuervo]

CJCJCJCJCJC,

The proponents of Breaching Dams will give up the issue when another suitable alternative has been found (ie.. the "middle ground"). But unfortunately, there is NOT a middle ground on this issue, that has been shown yet.

We have tried hatcheries. We have tried barges. We have tried trucks. We have tried pipelines. And after everyone of these experiments, we find the fish are still in trouble.

A few years back, in an effort to find Middle Ground, we had the "great drawdown", where we emptyed the resivoirs, and tried to make the fish think they were in a river. It did nothing to improve the fish survivals and just pissed everybody off.

We have been trying "flushes", where we buy, borrow, steal, or rent water from other users, and try and "flush" the fish to the ocean. It is not working, as the owners of the water are unwilling to make it available to the fish.

As the article I posted says
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> We will accept any plan that can truly restore salmon and steelhead to those levels that does not require breaching the dams. However, to date we have not seen any, nor do we believe we ever will. Apparently US District Judge Thomas Reedden agrees." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you know where the "middle ground" is, please share it with the Judge, so that we can all get back to having our Salmon in Idaho, and we can get out of the court rooms. On this issue, the "middle ground" is likely a myth.

 

[BigHornyRam]

Glad to be on your guy's team. So glad in fact that I will offer to be the treasurer in the effort to collect the $3 billion bond. Each of you guys send me a check for $3,000. Make it payable to Paul C's hunting trust account. Buzz, I know it will be hard for you to come up with this kind of coin, so monthly installments are OK for you. Go Team!

Paul

 

[cjcj]

well buzz i didn`t realize i was SCREAMING for middle ground, i`m just a firm believer in the concept, if you think drawing a hard line in the sand will work [maybee it will]then that`s what you have to do, i am in the dark as to what is going on with the salmon and other issue`s that effect you guy`s in your region. but i have worked in a major corporate enviroment for over 20 yrs. and i have been a facilitator/team leader etc. where in hundred`s of issues have been resolved. but the key was always credibility! and trust, if one side does not live up to it`s agreed upon obligation`s then there can`t be a common [middle ground] where i come from if you had no accountability for your action`s, or failed action`s you had no JOB! so maybee that`s the problem. but you will never convince me that it isn`t possible if ALL agreement`s are honored.

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, maybe the folks living in the Columbia River Basin should have demanded a bond when the dams went in....of course it would have been forfeited a long time ago.

Oh yeah, and thanks for allowing me the chance to make installments on the bond issue...first check for 37 cents is on the way, wait a minute, I can actually afford 39 cents because I just got a raise!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Paul,

I doubt we will let you be in charge of the money, at first. You have always seemed to struggle with understaing most issues related to economics. But keep in mind, we will appreciate your contributions... so be a good boy, and go get me a cup of coffee.

And as for your $3billion Bond for FUTURE damages, that you are worried about, I will take that seriously when the $1.6billion in PAST damages (please read the linked comments at the beginning of this thread) are paid to Idaho. And I am sure Oregon and Washington would like their past due balances too....

 

[ELKCHSR]

It seems to me from the posts on this topic, that the middle ground is still there and since the goals of this were never met because of one side not holding up to its agreements, then it can still be met. The side that is holding all of the cards (the Governmental agencies in this case in charge of doing the job) has as usual more than likely squandered the funds promised to complete these jobs by letting it be sucked up like a sponge by paper pushers, and ineffective bureaucracies. Of course the money's that were promised to be appropriated could have never been submitted, but either way, by letting our bureaucrats take a job to completion very rarely happens and if it is finished, it has had so many cost over runs by those changing their minds constantly that it ends up costing the project way more than it started out as. These projects that were promised if ever started and completed would at them minimum semi-pacify all sides. No one will like all the things done, but life is full of compromises every day, including deciding whether you will even crawl out of bed so you can go to work and pay the bills or to say screw it and just fall back asleep and let part of the world pass you by...

 

[BigHornyRam]

Elkchsr,

Your pretty narrow minded. If you were a paper pushing bureaucrat, you would think that your job was very necessary.

Paul

 

[ELKCHSR]

LMAO!!! I know I am!!! If I was a paper pushing bureaucrat I could just sit at my desk and Justify any thing I wanted to in my own mind, even if reality didn't really stand up to what I was thinking ....LMAO!!!