Hunting Leases/Kids Hunting/Drury Syndrome

[rogerthat]

Kicked out, death penalty. On places like that the guys on them know what they signed up for; you can’t have a lease with older deer if one guy goes rogue and starts shooting young ones. All in $15-25k/year per spot is typical, and guys spending that amount of money want to kill big, mature deer. It’s a very different mind set than what I would assume the vast majority of HTer’s would consider enjoyable hunting.

The more I think about this the more you’re blowing my mind. What does having one of these spots buy you? Family access to the property? Multiple bucks per year or just one trophy buck? Maybe Texas is different but the number of bucks that have the genetics to be really big is really a small fraction of the population. I listened to a podcast with a guy on a podcast that had access to a large large amount of property in the Midwest and if I remember correctly he was only finding a few over 170” on any give year. I have to believe the majority of deer shot off these club properties are older age class poor genetic bucks. Really like to hear more. This is insane stuff for $15-25k. That’s a dall hunt every other year instead.

 

[Nuts]

The guys doing that probably view it more like a golf country club membership. I could set up 10 farms for that dollar amount and put kids on deer. I think the forementioned deer hunts are far more likely to point things toward a euro trash elite mans game then someone leasing land to give kids decent opportunities.

 

[Bonasababy]

Said it before and will say it again for those in the back of the room. The QDM movement has done more to take away Access, Opportunity and arguably Recruitment than a lot of the other points we debate on this forum.

Hit lists, “my deer”, land managers, associated influencing, feeding of wildlife to congregate and attract them in the name of “management” and herd health, antler restrictions, earn a buck programs, I could go on forever.

I seriously question if I’d have the fire for deer hunting that I do if I grew up in the current environment.

The irony of all of this for the QDM’ers is everything they’ve worked for is the first thing tossed out the window when CWD enters the scene and within a few years it’s back to having to hunt for any deer. Literally watched this play out in real time.

To the OP, good on you for giving those kids an opportunity to get out, have fun and enjoy a chance to take a deer.

I remember going to a meeting where officials from the then new QDM association were speaking. Most of their talk was reasonable..they did have some genetics discussion messed up... until someone pressed them on shooting does and smaller bucks. They actually said that should be avoided...but they can be good targets for women and kids!

Survey after survey has shown support for hunting...but that support drops dramatically when its clear its focused on trophies only.

 

[El Jason]

This is insane stuff for $15-25k. That’s a dall hunt every other year instead.

Or a lot of cow elk hunts, with solitude and a few good friends.

 

[F250]

My personal opinion… there’s no way you can age a deer on the hoof, so accurately that you can tell a 4.5 year old from a 7.5 year old 100 % of the time. In fact, I doubt the average deer hunter ( including myself) can accurately age a deer on the hoof beyond the age of 2.5.

 

[D_Walt]

Genuinely curious how they are “on the hoof” aging these 7 and 8 year old deer.

Pretty much have to identify them early on at 4 or 5 years old, because 6-8 year olds generally have very similar body characteristics until they start to go downhill.

 

[D_Walt]

"Kicked out, death penalty. On places like that the guys on them know what they signed up for; you can’t have a lease with older deer if one guy goes rogue and starts shooting young ones. All in $15-25k/year per spot is typical, and guys spending that amount of money want to kill big, mature deer. It’s a very different mind set than what I would assume the vast majority of HTer’s would consider enjoyable hunting."

Not to digress the conversation. But what is the point of only shooting 7 & 8yr old deer other then to say you did? I don't believe everything I hear or read however a pretty reliable podcast the other day noted that the majority of the B&C record bucks are held by 5yr old's. So if the point is proper managing I suppose they are managing for age structure. That in itself isn't a bad idea but that's a lot of money to not shoot deer in there prime. Basically by those standards you would have to let the world record Hanson Buck which was 4 walk and had Hansen killed that he would be kicked off

When the age structure is skewed older you see more big deer…just because there are more in the herd. On places that supplemental feed bucks don’t drop off and sometimes get bigger up to about 8, at least down here. Deer exhibiting “undesirable” antler traits are generally culled from the herd at an earlier age.

 

[JV842]

First offense, they would kick out a member in good standing? A penalty of some sort is understandable, but kicked out of the club for one offense is hard to believe, as mistakes will happen.

If those are the rules, those are the rules
These leases that DWalt is referring to are pretty high $$$, u have to sign a contract, n there is a bunch of personal work, time, and $$$ put into building up a place that produces 180” 4yo bucks. Is it public land hunting, no but it is the reality of a lot of places in the South Texas Brush Country and in Mexico.
It’s WAY too rich for me but I get why it costs so much and why you would get kicked off of a place like that for a first offense.
Are these animals difficult to hunt? Yes and no…depends on the size of the place n the pressure put on the animals

 

[F250]

I wonder what Lab they send the incisor teeth to for confirmation of their age estimates…

 

[Forkyfinder]

You guys should stop rut hunting and let landowners manage deer.

That way - those with leases can better control population age and antler sizes.

Public hunting will be extra shit, but who cares? Big bucks, right?

 

[SFC B]

I think I may have a different perspective than most around these parts. I am a late onset hunter (35yo for 1 season, 5 seasons I was in Europe so realistically started at 40) and NOBODY on either side of my family hunted. I was lucky to get permission for a years on a 150 acre farm not far from the inlaws when we were home on leave (my son shot his first deer there) and hunt with a fraternity brother a couple of times in another county in Northern Indiana. He and a few others had a group that had permission to hunt several farms of older farmers who wanted deer control. None of them were "hit list" dudes. Starting about 8-9 years ago things went south (literally in this case). First, I was going to be home over T-giving and emailed the owner of the 150 about possibly hunting. He wrote back and let me know 2 guys from GA (not sure if they used a broker or anything) had leased his farm.......$3000 at that time. Then my other buddy let me know that he and his buddy had lost permission on all the farms they hunted except for the couple members owned. All leased to folks South of Tennessee over to TX (don't want to think what they are paying). Several years ago when the Huff Buck was taken it made matters worse (although that wasn't anywhere near where I am at), even to the point that my out of state license ( not IN resident anymore) has more than TRIPLED in cost to cash in on that. Then you add 'influencers" coming to not only private spots but the limited public there is and it plain sucks. If not for Redman I would probably not be hunting at home for now because there is no way I could get enough of a handle on the tiny amount of public in N IN to fight it out come Orange Army time.
I don't blame farmers for wanting to offset costs......BUT........they also get a lot of state and federal subsidy programs (everything from CRP payments to crop insurance et al) AND in IN they do not even have to buy licenses. Also, if they have any "damage" issues they can take deer whenever they want with any legal weapon (only needing to get a possession number/tag from DNR and not being able to keep antlers out of season).......and that is anyone with any type of agricultural land. Raising trees for timber? yep Got a big garden you are selling veggies out of? yep Just some of the things that go into making access harder and harder to get. I would love to buy land ( and have literally been told "well, then just buy a farm" by folks who know how expensive it currently is and are sitting on BIG tracts that nobody in THEIR family has had to pay for in generations- most mid 1800s) and be secure in IN myself/family but the cost per acre (due to agricultural productivity) is way out of my price range . For reference (even though there is a house on this) this is the cheapest 40+ acre piece in the county my family is in and there are only a few even for sale at all https://www.landwatch.com/kosciusko-county-indiana-homes-for-sale/pid/424760023
I don't know that I have any kind of answer but I know that if I was just starting now, from scratch with no contacts, it would be ROUGH to give it a go. I guess most of us are guilty of supporting the influencer bit to some degree. I don't feel it is AS drastic out here in the west due to the huge amount of public land, but in the Midwest and eastward it is overwhelming to some degree.

 

[D_Walt]

The more I think about this the more you’re blowing my mind. What does having one of these spots buy you? Family access to the property? Multiple bucks per year or just one trophy buck? Maybe Texas is different but the number of bucks that have the genetics to be really big is really a small fraction of the population. I listened to a podcast with a guy on a podcast that had access to a large large amount of property in the Midwest and if I remember correctly he was only finding a few over 170” on any give year. I have to believe the majority of deer shot off these club properties are older age class poor genetic bucks. Really like to hear more. This is insane stuff for $15-25k. That’s a dall hunt every other year instead.

Generally year around access, anywhere from 3-5 bucks per spot, with one being of “Trophy” status. Not everyone kills a 160+ every year. On our lease kids and friends (and the kids friends), wind up killing over 75% of the deer, maybe more. On ours, most of the guys bring their families most of the time. Deer season is 5 months long, great quail, dove, hog and Javelina hunting too. We kill some big deer every year.

 

[D_Walt]

My personal opinion… there’s no way you can age a deer on the hoof, so accurately that you can tell a 4.5 year old from a 7.5 year old 100 % of the time. In fact, I doubt the average deer hunter ( including myself) can accurately age a deer on the hoof beyond the age of 2.5.

You can get surprisingly accurate with enough time and observation of a specific deer herd. You’re right though, most hunters have a hard time distinguishing age classes of deer. After 25 years of doing this and comparing on the hoof observations to observed tooth wear on 75-100 or so deer a year deer (which is not 100% accurate, but it’s the best tool available to make a quick educated assumption) it gets easier to make a very accurate guess at age based on live observations. I will concede, no one can tell the difference between a 6,7, or 8 year old buck in the hoof if the deer was not previously known.

 

[3855WIN]

I think I may have a different perspective than most around these parts. I am a late onset hunter (35yo for 1 season, 5 seasons I was in Europe so realistically started at 40) and NOBODY on either side of my family hunted. I was lucky to get permission for a years on a 150 acre farm not far from the inlaws when we were home on leave (my son shot his first deer there) and hunt with a fraternity brother a couple of times in another county in Northern Indiana. He and a few others had a group that had permission to hunt several farms of older farmers who wanted deer control. None of them were "hit list" dudes. Starting about 8-9 years ago things went south (literally in this case). First, I was going to be home over T-giving and emailed the owner of the 150 about possibly hunting. He wrote back and let me know 2 guys from GA (not sure if they used a broker or anything) had leased his farm.......$3000 at that time. Then my other buddy let me know that he and his buddy had lost permission on all the farms they hunted except for the couple members owned. All leased to folks South of Tennessee over to TX (don't want to think what they are paying). Several years ago when the Huff Buck was taken it made matters worse (although that wasn't anywhere near where I am at), even to the point that my out of state license ( not IN resident anymore) has more than TRIPLED in cost to cash in on that. Then you add 'influencers" coming to not only private spots but the limited public there is and it plain sucks. If not for Redman I would probably not be hunting at home for now because there is no way I could get enough of a handle on the tiny amount of public in N IN to fight it out come Orange Army time.
I don't blame farmers for wanting to offset costs......BUT........they also get a lot of state and federal subsidy programs (everything from CRP payments to crop insurance et al) AND in IN they do not even have to buy licenses. Also, if they have any "damage" issues they can take deer whenever they want with any legal weapon (only needing to get a possession number/tag from DNR and not being able to keep antlers out of season).......and that is anyone with any type of agricultural land. Raising trees for timber? yep Got a big garden you are selling veggies out of? yep Just some of the things that go into making access harder and harder to get. I would love to buy land ( and have literally been told "well, then just buy a farm" by folks who know how expensive it currently is and are sitting on BIG tracts that nobody in THEIR family has had to pay for in generations- most mid 1800s) and be secure in IN myself/family but the cost per acre (due to agricultural productivity) is way out of my price range . For reference (even though there is a house on this) this is the cheapest 40+ acre piece in the county my family is in and there are only a few even for sale at all https://www.landwatch.com/kosciusko-county-indiana-homes-for-sale/pid/424760023
I don't know that I have any kind of answer but I know that if I was just starting now, from scratch with no contacts, it would be ROUGH to give it a go. I guess most of us are guilty of supporting the influencer bit to some degree. I don't feel it is AS drastic out here in the west due to the huge amount of public land, but in the Midwest and eastward it is overwhelming to some degree.

You’re now a non resident. You are now the person coming in from outside ruining it for the locals.
If you’ll start archery hunting, you’ll find a much more enjoyable deer hunting experience. I know a three man crew that hunt a Midwest state for one week each year. They hunt public. The almost always fill all three tags with 130”+ bucks. Their best this year was a 168”. They hunt public land. On day one, I was texting one of them and he’d put 300 miles on his truck that day, scouting public opportunities. It’s there for the taking, if you want it bad enough.

 

[Nick87]

Also one of the reasons I hunt is for the solitude. My family gets annoyed because I won’t even tell them about my hunting spots. Come join the club!!! Club? Gtfoh

You'd have a pretty hard time in a lot of places finding solitude hunting public east of the Mississippi. There are definitely places it can be done when you get a little further from ag in some states.

 

[antlerradar]

You guys should stop rut hunting and let landowners manage deer.

That way - those with leases can better control population age and antler sizes.

Public hunting will be extra shit, but who cares? Big bucks, right?

Coming to MT sooner than many want to admit.

 

[rjthehunter]

We have over a thousand acres of private ground in the family. I try to manage it to grow bigger deer, but I do so differently than most.

Basic rules of "please don't shoot young bucks, if you want meat, shoot a couple of does. They are literally everywhere. Let the bucks grow and compete. Sometimes people shoot bucks, sometimes they don't. I will say, I've harvested my fair share of pretty good bucks since initiating the goal of letting them grow. If I'm not going to at least European mount the buck and put it on the wall, I'm not going to shoot it. In the last couple of years, I've let more than a couple 130-140 bucks walk in the past with my sights set on a bigger one that had been frequenting the area.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Coming to MT sooner than many want to admit.

Did my best to stop it.

Some folks here are dumping gas on the idea.

Look at how much conversation there is about "management" on private land being impossible (i prefer this - some folks here tend to forget who owns wildlife) due to montanas season structure.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

When the age structure is skewed older you see more big deer…just because there are more in the herd. On places that supplemental feed bucks don’t drop off and sometimes get bigger up to about 8, at least down here. Deer exhibiting “undesirable” antler traits are generally culled from the herd at an earlier age.

Here's an example of an 8 or 9 YO low fence buck from mexico that scored 212 gross, 206 net. Lots of supplemental feed and low stress = big for a long time.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You’re now a non resident. You are now the person coming in from outside ruining it for the locals.
If you’ll start archery hunting, you’ll find a much more enjoyable deer hunting experience. I know a three man crew that hunt a Midwest state for one week each year. They hunt public. The almost always fill all three tags with 130”+ bucks. Their best this year was a 168”. They hunt public land. On day one, I was texting one of them and he’d put 300 miles on his truck that day, scouting public opportunities. It’s there for the taking, if you want it bad enough.

I thought NR were great for the local economy and not detrimental to hunting for locals, at least in the midwest.

Thats the bs that gets peddled here from the people in the midwest, hard to imagine them not liking NR in their own state. Unless of course theyre selfish hypocrites.