Hello???? H E L L O ! ! ! Anybody there?
- Thread starter MarlandS
- Start date
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Lost, Outlawing game farms isn't sacrificing any of our own. Real hunters don't pay thousands of dollars to shoot a tame bull elk. How is getting rid of canned hunts a bad thing for hunting? If canned hunts are allowed to continue, that will be one thing that will greatly contribute to the end of hunting. I do agree with the other things you listed.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-25-2003 19:44: Message edited by: Washington Hunter ]</font>
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-25-2003 19:44: Message edited by: Washington Hunter ]</font>
Calif. Hunter
Active member
I don't usually post here anymore, only because I know how the regulars think already and know I'm not going to change their minds. But - who is anyone to decide what is or is not "real" hunting for someone else? That is a personal decision which we are all free to make ... and simply because something is legal or illegal still does not make it ethical or not. The American Revolution was illegal to the British. Hitler was elected by a landslide legally.
Ten Bears
New member
I'm against game farming in the first place, but if we're gonna have them, why not let some "city folk" have there "hunt"? Are they really hurting the sport of hunting?
Calif. Hunter
Active member
I'm disgusted by the sight, smell and taste of tomato soup or cooked mushrooms. I guess that means that no one else should get to eat them and that is unethical to eat them, just because I think so and especially if I can get 51% of the rest of you to feel the same way.
Ten Bears
New member
Canned soup, canned salmon, canned tuna, canned vegie's, canned hunt, any questions?
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Come on, everybody knows shooting a tame elk that's fenced in, and can't get away like wild elk can, is not real hunting. There shouldn't be a question about that, should there? And yes, Ten Bears, they really are hurting the sport of hunting. Cal. Hunter, How does what you eat or not eat affect wildlife and hunters like canned hunting does?
WH, Anyone who has ever seen an elk across a canyon and had to figure out how to get to it without spooking it, realizes that canned hunts aren't really hunting. The thing you seem unable to realize is that not everyone has had a chance to hunt elk across a canyon, nor is everyone capable of hunting elk in the wild.
There is nothing sacred about elk. They are an animal, just like deer, or antelope, or cows, or sheep. They don't know the difference if they are shot in the wild, on a game farm, or in a chute at a slaughter house. When they are dead, they are dead. As for hunters, there is nothing sacred about them, either. The truth be realized, there are very, very few hunters left in the world. There are lots of people who hunt, but very few true hunters... People who hunt for survival. People who hunt for game or for other hunters, to stay alive. I would venture to say that there are no "Hunters" on this board. Who among us has to hunt for survival? We certainly wouldn't live long on one or two elk a year. So what you are really talking about is the perception held by people who don't hunt, of people who do hunt.
And the point that CH was trying to make was the your personal preference may not agree with someone elses personal preference. You don't have the right to tell someone else how to live thier lives... It wasn't meant as a shot, just trying to illustrate a point. He hates mushrooms... He doesn't know what he's missing... Hell, I even have a brother who hates strawberries... What if he dictated that no one would ever eat strawberries again?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-27-2003 21:25: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>
There is nothing sacred about elk. They are an animal, just like deer, or antelope, or cows, or sheep. They don't know the difference if they are shot in the wild, on a game farm, or in a chute at a slaughter house. When they are dead, they are dead. As for hunters, there is nothing sacred about them, either. The truth be realized, there are very, very few hunters left in the world. There are lots of people who hunt, but very few true hunters... People who hunt for survival. People who hunt for game or for other hunters, to stay alive. I would venture to say that there are no "Hunters" on this board. Who among us has to hunt for survival? We certainly wouldn't live long on one or two elk a year. So what you are really talking about is the perception held by people who don't hunt, of people who do hunt.
And the point that CH was trying to make was the your personal preference may not agree with someone elses personal preference. You don't have the right to tell someone else how to live thier lives... It wasn't meant as a shot, just trying to illustrate a point. He hates mushrooms... He doesn't know what he's missing... Hell, I even have a brother who hates strawberries... What if he dictated that no one would ever eat strawberries again?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-27-2003 21:25: Message edited by: danr55 ]</font>
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Dan, I really don't have anything against a person who hunts on a game farm. Not personally anyway. The only problem I have with that person is that by going to these game farms and paying for a canned hunt, they are supporting game farms, and keeping them in business. Game farms are what I have a problem with. To tell you the truth, I feel sorry for people who feel the need to buy an elk, because they don't have the ability or the confidence to do it the real way. Heck, if you want to spend money, why not spend it on an outfitted elk hunt in the mountains? A real hunt with real horses and real mules and REAL elk. I would think a guy would get a lot more personal satisfaction from that, and a lot more good memories too. And if a guy doesn't want a wilderness type experience, there are private land hunts for wild elk that offer high success rates and sometimes a fairly easy hunt. So why support game farms? Game farms are bad for wild elk. It's not just my opinion, it's a fact. We've been over this before and I don't think it's necessary to rehash it all now. The fact is game farms are bad for elk and bad for hunting, and hunters should not be supporting them. Now, I'm speaking mainly about elk here, and states other than Texas
Ten Bears
New member
I can remember back when I was a kid. The whole family would get money together, and by a beef or 2. We'd go to the ranch and pay for them, and dad would tell me which one(s) to shoot. Wasn't really hunting, but those were the first animals I ever killed, and at the time it was hunting to me. I shot hogs back then too.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
That's cool Ten. That's what I'd do too if I wanted to buy some meat. But if I want elk meat, I'll go hunting.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Danr said, "The thing you seem unable to realize is that not everyone has had a chance to hunt elk across a canyon, nor is everyone capable of hunting elk in the wild."
Well danr, heres where we part ways on that arguement in a huge way. In my opinion if you cant hack it hunting elk in the wild, too bad, you dont need one. Go buy a package of burger at the grocery store. Its really pathetic to cheapen elk and the hunting of them to fit the needs of a very few "people" who think they have to wack an elk in a pen.
I'm also sorry too that you see no difference between a wild animal and a domestic one...I wonder if you're trying to defend any future hunts you have planned?
Also, while you yourself may not be a "hunter" please refrain from telling others they arent, because with all due respect, I dont buy into you're theory on what constitutes a hunter.
Danr said, "And the point that CH was trying to make was the your personal preference may not agree with someone elses personal preference. You don't have the right to tell someone else how to live thier lives..."
Not trying to pick on you Danr, but that simply isnt even close to a true statement. There are thousands of laws passed all the time that tell someone else how to live their lives. So, yes, I do have the right to tell them how to live their lives...and thats a FACT. Take a close look at I-143 in Montana, thats exactly what I did when I voted for it, the message was clear. What I and a majority of MT residents did was tell people that they wouldnt be living their life around a game farm.
Well danr, heres where we part ways on that arguement in a huge way. In my opinion if you cant hack it hunting elk in the wild, too bad, you dont need one. Go buy a package of burger at the grocery store. Its really pathetic to cheapen elk and the hunting of them to fit the needs of a very few "people" who think they have to wack an elk in a pen.
I'm also sorry too that you see no difference between a wild animal and a domestic one...I wonder if you're trying to defend any future hunts you have planned?
Also, while you yourself may not be a "hunter" please refrain from telling others they arent, because with all due respect, I dont buy into you're theory on what constitutes a hunter.
Danr said, "And the point that CH was trying to make was the your personal preference may not agree with someone elses personal preference. You don't have the right to tell someone else how to live thier lives..."
Not trying to pick on you Danr, but that simply isnt even close to a true statement. There are thousands of laws passed all the time that tell someone else how to live their lives. So, yes, I do have the right to tell them how to live their lives...and thats a FACT. Take a close look at I-143 in Montana, thats exactly what I did when I voted for it, the message was clear. What I and a majority of MT residents did was tell people that they wouldnt be living their life around a game farm.
Ten Bears
New member
My point though is, that at the time it was the only hunting I knew, except birds. For some people, "ranch" hunting, may be there only option.
BUZZ, I don't see your argument here. Ranch hunting puts fewer potential ATV riding lazy arses in the woods during "your" hunting season.
BUZZ, I don't see your argument here. Ranch hunting puts fewer potential ATV riding lazy arses in the woods during "your" hunting season.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Ten, it sounds like you need to do some reading. Here you go...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
RMEF POSITION STATEMENT on GAME FARMING
(Adopted April 7, 1994)
Background
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation’s mission and objectives include conserving natural habitats; perpetuating wild, well-managed, free-ranging elk populations that may be hunted and otherwise enjoyed; and encouraging sound management of elk, other wildlife and their habitat.
The RMEF defines game farming as the “intensive husbandry of privately owned game animals held captive under penned conditions.” The raising of captive elk, red deer and other Cervids (members of the deer family) on private game farms is proliferating throughout North America. Concurrently, wildlife scientists and veterinarians, state wildlife management agencies and conservation organizations have experienced serious concerns about potential risks to the health and welfare of free-ranging wildlife populations. Specific concerns include:
The possibility of disease transmission from game-farm animals to free-ranging wildlife populations. Serious disease outbreaks have been documented among captive elk herds in recent years. The current technology of disease testing is unable to assure with absolute certainty the absence of tuberculosis, chronic wasting disease and certain other diseases in individual animals. The impacts of these diseases upon wild, free-ranging elk populations could be significant and enduring.
The possibility of genetic pollution due to hybridization with escaped game farm animals. Red deer and other closely related exotic Cervus species are able to interbreed with North American elk. The current technology of genetic testing is unable to identify hybrids beyond the first generation with absolute certainty. While the long-range consequences of hybridization with exotic species upon wild elk populations are as yet unknown, they could be significantly detrimental and irreversible.
The presence and ultimate influence of hybridization and disease introduction upon wild, free-ranging elk populations may not be fully realized for many years.
The impossibility of assuring that wildlife held in captivity will never escape. Numerous escapes from game farms have been documented.The loss of wildlife habitat through fencing of winter ranges and migration corridors.
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation:
Believes that raising captive elk, red deer and other Cervids on private game farms in states with wild, free-ranging elk populations poses serious risks to the health and viability of those wild elk herds due to the potential of disease transmission and genetic pollution from hybridization with escaped exotic game-farm animals.
Encourages additional research, when necessary, to further define the significance and long-range impact of these risk factors.
Believes that the loss of habitat through fencing of winter ranges and migration corridors may be detrimental to wild free-ranging elk populations.
Supports the enactment of game farm regulatory legislation, at both the state and federal level, crafted to protect the health and viability of wild free-ranging elk populations.
Supports the continued involvement of state wildlife agencies in the regulation of the game farming industry in matters related to the protection of the health and welfare of wild, free-ranging elk populations.
Believes that the raising of red deer, other non-native (exotic) Cervus species, sub-species and hybrids presents an unacceptable threat to wild, free-ranging elk populations.
Objects to any form of game farming for the purpose of raising red deer, other exotic Cervus species, sub-species or hybrids thereof in states with wild, free-ranging elk populations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And here's another one. It's a statement by the Canadian Wildlife Federation but the problems with game farming there are the same problems with it here.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Let’s leave wildlife where it belongs — in the wild! CWF has for many years fought to prevent the establishment of game farming in Canada. Game farming is the practice of owning and raising ungulates for the purpose of selling any or all of its parts.
Why are we so concerned?
By creating markets for wildlife, we are essentially making species more valuable dead than alive.
The risk of desease transmission from captive animals to wild populations is a reality.
In the early 1990s, the tuberculosis-free status of Canadian livestock came under threat when biologists discovered that the disease had infected elk and deer on game farms in Alberta.
In 1991, a tissue worm that causes paralysis and other neurological disorders threatened the health of wildlife in Canada. As a result, Agriculture Canada had to slaughter infected herds and close the border to red deer imports.
Most recently, a case of chronic wasting disease (CWD) turned up in a game-farmed elk in Saskatchewan. CWD is closely related to scrapie, a disease that affects sheep, and the "mad cow" disease that has infected British cattle.
Escapes from game farms are inevitable. Runaway animals introduce the risk of cross-breeding and the establishment of fertile hybrids.
The legal sale of animal parts, such as antlers, meat, and various internal organs, increases the risk that poached animals will reach markets disguised as game-farmed animals. This trade will perpetuate a belief system that encourages a demand for products derived from illegal animal parts. Therefore, wildlife poaching will increase.
Wildlife access to already meager supplies of habitat will diminish because game farms must be surrounded by 2.5-metre-high fences. Wildlife-proof fences can block or disrupt migratory routes and entangle and kill wild animals attempting to interact with captive stock.
Intensive game farming will contribute to the reduction or eradication of such predators as wolves, bears, and raptors, which are seen as detrimental to livestock.
Farmers are currently capturing free-ranging wildlife, despite assurances by government and the game-farming industry that such impoundments would not occur. Since breeding stock remains costly, fledgling game farmers are strongly tempted to capture wild animals.
The cost of game farming to taxpayers is high with very little return. The federal government has already paid millions of dollars to farmers in compensation for diseased animals that had to be eradicated. Other expenses include promoting of the industry, enforcing regulations, and quarantining exotic imports.
The frivolous killing of fenced-in wildlife on so-called "shooter farms" is hardly a sport and further diminishes our perception of wildlife. Alberta currently exports live animals to hunting facilities in the United States, where shooter farms are common.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
RMEF POSITION STATEMENT on GAME FARMING
(Adopted April 7, 1994)
Background
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation’s mission and objectives include conserving natural habitats; perpetuating wild, well-managed, free-ranging elk populations that may be hunted and otherwise enjoyed; and encouraging sound management of elk, other wildlife and their habitat.
The RMEF defines game farming as the “intensive husbandry of privately owned game animals held captive under penned conditions.” The raising of captive elk, red deer and other Cervids (members of the deer family) on private game farms is proliferating throughout North America. Concurrently, wildlife scientists and veterinarians, state wildlife management agencies and conservation organizations have experienced serious concerns about potential risks to the health and welfare of free-ranging wildlife populations. Specific concerns include:
The possibility of disease transmission from game-farm animals to free-ranging wildlife populations. Serious disease outbreaks have been documented among captive elk herds in recent years. The current technology of disease testing is unable to assure with absolute certainty the absence of tuberculosis, chronic wasting disease and certain other diseases in individual animals. The impacts of these diseases upon wild, free-ranging elk populations could be significant and enduring.
The possibility of genetic pollution due to hybridization with escaped game farm animals. Red deer and other closely related exotic Cervus species are able to interbreed with North American elk. The current technology of genetic testing is unable to identify hybrids beyond the first generation with absolute certainty. While the long-range consequences of hybridization with exotic species upon wild elk populations are as yet unknown, they could be significantly detrimental and irreversible.
The presence and ultimate influence of hybridization and disease introduction upon wild, free-ranging elk populations may not be fully realized for many years.
The impossibility of assuring that wildlife held in captivity will never escape. Numerous escapes from game farms have been documented.The loss of wildlife habitat through fencing of winter ranges and migration corridors.
The Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation:
Believes that raising captive elk, red deer and other Cervids on private game farms in states with wild, free-ranging elk populations poses serious risks to the health and viability of those wild elk herds due to the potential of disease transmission and genetic pollution from hybridization with escaped exotic game-farm animals.
Encourages additional research, when necessary, to further define the significance and long-range impact of these risk factors.
Believes that the loss of habitat through fencing of winter ranges and migration corridors may be detrimental to wild free-ranging elk populations.
Supports the enactment of game farm regulatory legislation, at both the state and federal level, crafted to protect the health and viability of wild free-ranging elk populations.
Supports the continued involvement of state wildlife agencies in the regulation of the game farming industry in matters related to the protection of the health and welfare of wild, free-ranging elk populations.
Believes that the raising of red deer, other non-native (exotic) Cervus species, sub-species and hybrids presents an unacceptable threat to wild, free-ranging elk populations.
Objects to any form of game farming for the purpose of raising red deer, other exotic Cervus species, sub-species or hybrids thereof in states with wild, free-ranging elk populations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And here's another one. It's a statement by the Canadian Wildlife Federation but the problems with game farming there are the same problems with it here.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Let’s leave wildlife where it belongs — in the wild! CWF has for many years fought to prevent the establishment of game farming in Canada. Game farming is the practice of owning and raising ungulates for the purpose of selling any or all of its parts.
Why are we so concerned?
By creating markets for wildlife, we are essentially making species more valuable dead than alive.
The risk of desease transmission from captive animals to wild populations is a reality.
In the early 1990s, the tuberculosis-free status of Canadian livestock came under threat when biologists discovered that the disease had infected elk and deer on game farms in Alberta.
In 1991, a tissue worm that causes paralysis and other neurological disorders threatened the health of wildlife in Canada. As a result, Agriculture Canada had to slaughter infected herds and close the border to red deer imports.
Most recently, a case of chronic wasting disease (CWD) turned up in a game-farmed elk in Saskatchewan. CWD is closely related to scrapie, a disease that affects sheep, and the "mad cow" disease that has infected British cattle.
Escapes from game farms are inevitable. Runaway animals introduce the risk of cross-breeding and the establishment of fertile hybrids.
The legal sale of animal parts, such as antlers, meat, and various internal organs, increases the risk that poached animals will reach markets disguised as game-farmed animals. This trade will perpetuate a belief system that encourages a demand for products derived from illegal animal parts. Therefore, wildlife poaching will increase.
Wildlife access to already meager supplies of habitat will diminish because game farms must be surrounded by 2.5-metre-high fences. Wildlife-proof fences can block or disrupt migratory routes and entangle and kill wild animals attempting to interact with captive stock.
Intensive game farming will contribute to the reduction or eradication of such predators as wolves, bears, and raptors, which are seen as detrimental to livestock.
Farmers are currently capturing free-ranging wildlife, despite assurances by government and the game-farming industry that such impoundments would not occur. Since breeding stock remains costly, fledgling game farmers are strongly tempted to capture wild animals.
The cost of game farming to taxpayers is high with very little return. The federal government has already paid millions of dollars to farmers in compensation for diseased animals that had to be eradicated. Other expenses include promoting of the industry, enforcing regulations, and quarantining exotic imports.
The frivolous killing of fenced-in wildlife on so-called "shooter farms" is hardly a sport and further diminishes our perception of wildlife. Alberta currently exports live animals to hunting facilities in the United States, where shooter farms are common.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
BuzzH
Well-known member
Ten, I want to ban game farms and atv's.
There will be even fewer atv riders when they arent allowed in the woods during hunting season, that will work better than having game farms around to keep the atv'ers out of the woods.
I got my way in MT with game farms, and I will more than likely get my way with the atv issue too. Is that whats bothering you?
There will be even fewer atv riders when they arent allowed in the woods during hunting season, that will work better than having game farms around to keep the atv'ers out of the woods.
I got my way in MT with game farms, and I will more than likely get my way with the atv issue too. Is that whats bothering you?
Ten Bears
New member
Interesting, so you support the abolishment of game farms.
I don't think this is the case,but I could be wrong. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The legal sale of animal parts, such as antlers, meat, and various internal organs, increases the risk that poached animals will reach markets disguised as game-farmed animals. This trade will perpetuate a belief system that encourages a demand for products derived from illegal animal parts. Therefore, wildlife poaching will increase.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If the legal sale of horns and hides is going to lead to an increasein poaching, maybe weshould outlaw hunting too.
I don't think this is the case,but I could be wrong. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The legal sale of animal parts, such as antlers, meat, and various internal organs, increases the risk that poached animals will reach markets disguised as game-farmed animals. This trade will perpetuate a belief system that encourages a demand for products derived from illegal animal parts. Therefore, wildlife poaching will increase.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If the legal sale of horns and hides is going to lead to an increasein poaching, maybe weshould outlaw hunting too.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Maybe you should understand how that market was created in the first place...Yep, you got it GAME FARMS.
The problem with Game Farms is they are so unregulated that there is no way of knowing if the elk or their parts are coming from elk farms or illegally killed or captured wild elk. The legal Market creates a parallel and damaging black market...
This is wildlife management 101, commercialization of wildlife has never worked. There would be less poaching if no legal market exists, its too hard to move the product.
You know this, but you're grasping at straws to convince yourself that game farms are doing something positive. They never have and never will, sorry.
The problem with Game Farms is they are so unregulated that there is no way of knowing if the elk or their parts are coming from elk farms or illegally killed or captured wild elk. The legal Market creates a parallel and damaging black market...
This is wildlife management 101, commercialization of wildlife has never worked. There would be less poaching if no legal market exists, its too hard to move the product.
You know this, but you're grasping at straws to convince yourself that game farms are doing something positive. They never have and never will, sorry.
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Ten Bears, of course I support the abolishment of game farms. I thought I made that clear.
Ten Bears
New member
I was experiencing technical difficulties with my computer. I'm back now.
If you read my previous post, you'll see I said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I'm against game farming in the first place.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would say that I see some use for them, but I would like to see heavy regulation and controls established for were and how they can be set up.
Locally here 2 years ago, a hunter killed a big bull elk within a mile of a game farm. It had orange ear tags, and the owner of the farm wanted the hunter to pay him for his elk that had escaped "a couple of weeks ago". The hunter tagged the elk, season wass open. I think the farmer needed tickets and fines. He never intended to report the elk missing. He should be shut down.
BUZZ, I really don't care what you have to say. When your gone, nobody will remember you were here, and your vain attempts for immortality will have been for not. As the political and economical winds blow, there will be elk farms in MT again,in time, in time.
Should we abolish the fur trade too?
If you read my previous post, you'll see I said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I'm against game farming in the first place.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would say that I see some use for them, but I would like to see heavy regulation and controls established for were and how they can be set up.
Locally here 2 years ago, a hunter killed a big bull elk within a mile of a game farm. It had orange ear tags, and the owner of the farm wanted the hunter to pay him for his elk that had escaped "a couple of weeks ago". The hunter tagged the elk, season wass open. I think the farmer needed tickets and fines. He never intended to report the elk missing. He should be shut down.
BUZZ, I really don't care what you have to say. When your gone, nobody will remember you were here, and your vain attempts for immortality will have been for not. As the political and economical winds blow, there will be elk farms in MT again,in time, in time.
Should we abolish the fur trade too?
Washington Hunter
Well-known member
Ten Bears, sure doesn't sound to me like you are against game farms.
