Fwp December commission meeting

[Hunting Wife]

So we are screwed? We have a department that says there are no problems “best management in the west” and a commission that is listening to the department or running the governors agenda. There has to be a better way. A reasonable group of outfitters landowners and sportsman could come up with more meaningful solutions in an hour than mtfwp and the commission has in 50 years.

Well Doug, yes, you could throw up your hands and exclaim we’re screwed.

Or you could put your money where your mouth is, buckle down and fiercely engage in the current system as many experienced and well-versed posters have described in detail. Your call.

@Ben Lamb @Schaaf @Big Fin @Gerald Martin @Eric Albus @Big Shooter among others have been putting on a clinic about how this is done while other folks have been making excuses for why they can’t/wont engage while blasting their impotent gripes on repeat in this and other threads.

Just sayin’.

 

[DFS]

Well Doug, yes, you could throw up your hands and exclaim we’re screwed.

Or you could put your money where your mouth is, buckle down and fiercely engage in the current system as many experienced and well-versed posters have described in detail. Your call.

@Ben Lamb @Schaaf @Big Fin @Gerald Martin @Eric Albus @Big Shooter among others have been putting on a clinic about how this is done while other folks have been making excuses for why they can’t/wont engage while blasting their impotent gripes on repeat in this and other threads.

Just sayin’.

I have been doing what I can I will assure you that.

 

[DFS]

Well Doug, yes, you could throw up your hands and exclaim we’re screwed.

Or you could put your money where your mouth is, buckle down and fiercely engage in the current system as many experienced and well-versed posters have described in detail. Your call.

@Ben Lamb @Schaaf @Big Fin @Gerald Martin @Eric Albus @Big Shooter among others have been putting on a clinic about how this is done while other folks have been making excuses for why they can’t/wont engage while blasting their impotent gripes on repeat in this and other threads.

Just sayin’.

After the back to back bad winters in 2011/2012 I suggested we need to do something because our deer got hammered “they weren’t in to knee jerk reactions”. 2 years later they finally did decrease doe tags. Only to increase doe tags to 11k a few short years later, long before populations recovered on public. I have consistently made my public comments. I took a day off this year to meet with the game manager to express my concerns which are “anecdotal”. I emailed our commissioner and game manager this spring to try to get private land doe tags just trying to keep some deer on the landscape (Even provided an example of how Wyoming does it when populations crash). I show up at meetings. I make my comments. I’m not wrong in what I’m seeing. Sorry if I offended you for flaming mtfwp on the internet but they deserve every bit of it. I could go on hell I’ve even talked to the director 2 times. Don’t tell me I just sit on the internet and complain. Maybe my effort is misguided but it is there and consistent with putting wildlife first.

 

[Hunting Wife]

After the back to back bad winters in 2011/2012 I suggested we need to do something because our deer got hammered “they weren’t in to knee jerk reactions”. 2 years later they finally did decrease doe tags. Only to increase doe tags to 11k a few short years later, long before populations recovered on public. I have consistently made my public comments. I took a day off this year to meet with the game manager to express my concerns which are “anecdotal”. I emailed our commissioner and game manager this spring to try to get private land doe tags just trying to keep some deer on the landscape (Even provided an example of how Wyoming does it when populations crash). I show up at meetings. I make my comments. I’m not wrong in what I’m seeing. Sorry if I offended you for flaming mtfwp on the internet but they deserve every bit of it. I could go on hell I’ve even talked to the director 2 times. Don’t tell me I just sit on the internet and complain. Maybe my effort is misguided but it is there and consistent with putting wildlife first.

That’s great Doug. Glad you aren’t just sitting on here complaining. Hope some others follow your lead.

But I hope you can also appreciate, from the other side, how absolutely frustrating it is to see a ton of keyboard warriors virtually copy-pasting hundreds of almost verbatim, fairly non-constructive complaints on the internet, right up until it’s public meeting time when zero of those people ever bother to show up or send actual constructive comments. Because that is by far my most frequent experience. We are all colored by our experience- no escaping that.

Happy New Year. Hope it brings something better for wildlife in MT.

 

[DFS]

That’s great Doug. Glad you aren’t just sitting on here complaining. Hope some others follow your lead.

But I hope you can also appreciate, from the other side, how absolutely frustrating it is to see a ton of keyboard warriors virtually copy-pasting hundreds of almost verbatim, fairly non-constructive complaints on the internet, right up until it’s public meeting time when zero of those people ever bother to show up or send actual constructive comments. Because that is by far my most frequent experience. We are all colored by our experience- no escaping that.

Happy New Year. Hope it brings something better for wildlife in MT.

Years of well informed individuals being ignored will lead to less public engagement.

 

[brockel]

Years of well informed individuals being ignored will lead to less public engagement.

Gets old wasting my vacation time and money just to hear “everything is good” “nothing has changed” “just need to hunt harder”

 

[Sytes]

Life of the Joe hunter "enlightened" by Newberg's, Hunt Talk.

Sit on stumps around the fire at hunt camp - rant about this or that. This encouraged us to occasionally attend an FWP meeting about this or that.

Hunt Talk when I joined '09... One of those who ranted about this or that exposed to contacting representatives, attending State Capital proposed bills, communicating with Representatives specific to our wildlife. Learning more and more about the FWP commission, etc.

To me, the collective enhance the action. Some may not be there - yet or may not entirely though they may be more informed / engaged to communicate with representatives, submit public comments, etc.

Keyboard chest thumpers 'R Us. Welcome to Hunt Talk. Money to conservation organizations - etc. There are far more involved beyond those joe hunters sitting around a campfire ranting about this and that. Welcome to the internet and thankful for Newberg's platform to open our reaches far beyond those stumps.

 

[rogerthat]

That’s great Doug. Glad you aren’t just sitting on here complaining. Hope some others follow your lead.

But I hope you can also appreciate, from the other side, how absolutely frustrating it is to see a ton of keyboard warriors virtually copy-pasting hundreds of almost verbatim, fairly non-constructive complaints on the internet, right up until it’s public meeting time when zero of those people ever bother to show up or send actual constructive comments. Because that is by far my most frequent experience. We are all colored by our experience- no escaping that.

Happy New Year. Hope it brings something better for wildlife in MT.

Keyboard warriors? Mirror? Lmao. Maybe you can get on the elk shape podcast.

 

[DFS]

Gets old wasting my vacation time and money just to hear “everything is good” “nothing has changed” “just need to hunt harder”

A good example of that was this years special mule deer meeting in Miles City. Maybe they would go around the room and scope peoples concerns. Nope they brought the people there that were passionate about mule deer to lecture them on how their management is a huge success even though their own data (probably not even accurate) shows the opposite.

 

[Nameless Range]

Years of well informed individuals being ignored will lead to less public engagement.

Montanans are justified in feeling that their public comment is nothing but feel-goodery.

Dang near ten years ago I remember attending the season setting meetings around Shoulder Seasons. Tons of public comment - 86% opposed - an unreal public consensus for almost any topic. We were told they'd be temporary, they'd be assessed for efficacy and ceased if found to not be. Essentially all BS. This was under a Democrat Governor and his commission. I can see how this story repeated could jade someone.

I'm not nearly as active as lots of folks, but I had an in-person conversation earlier this year with an FWP employee about something I thought was needed in the EMP, that was then incorporated into the new one (something that is to some degree nothing but feel-goodery itself, seeing as how the commission can ignore it). FWIW, it felt good.

Point of it all is, FWP, the Commission, they largely don't represent us. Despite Montana Law around the Public Trust, I just don't feel they do. Now FWP isn't a monolith. In my experience it's mostly dedicated public servants who answer to an appointed head of the snake - slithering the direction the executive branch tells them they're going, because that's who they answer to - Not you or me. The public employees I know do what they can, and they need our support where we can give it.

Because those contingents aren't representative bodies, it doesn't follow though that we shouldn't interact with them, it just means we need to understand the relationship we have with them. This is something I have been thinking about. Your commissioners making moves you want, supporting changes you think will be needed, will only be successfully implemented via persuasion, and nothing else.

It sucks, and it ain't right, but it's where we are at. So all we are left with is the case for what we believe, and the relationships through which we will transmit that information to those with the power to do something about it. Public comment, emails - I increasingly think they are useless. I do them to cover bases. But essentially all these folks can be met with in person, and I think that's where sportsmen should really lean in. Imagine if instead of 100 public comments via some godforsaken portal, it was 100 conversations in person or on the phone way before a meeting ever occurred.

Of course, this doesn't address the sweetheart deals we find out a few days before the meetings.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Keyboard warriors? Mirror? Lmao. Maybe you can get on the elk shape podcast.

Yep, just your run of the mill keyboard warrior. I’ve never done anything remotely useful for wildlife.

Too busy typing on my warrior keyboard to have any clue what podcast you are referencing. Was that supposed to hurt my feelings?

I’m out. This is going nowhere, as usual. Thinking a lot lately that this forum isn’t worth it anymore.

 

[DFS]

Yep, just your run of the mill keyboard warrior. I’ve never done anything remotely useful for wildlife.

Too busy typing on my warrior keyboard to have any clue what podcast you are referencing. Was that supposed to hurt my feelings?

I’m out. This is going nowhere, as usual. Thinking a lot lately that this forum isn’t worth it anymore.

That would be a wrong assessment. This is why the internet can be confusing.

 

[Sytes]

It sucks, and it ain't right, but it's where we are at. So all we are left with is the case for what we believe, and the relationships through which we will transmit that information to those with the power to do something about it. Public comment, emails - I increasingly think they are useless. I do them to cover bases. But essentially all these folks can be met with in person, and I think that's where sportsmen should really lean in. Imagine if instead of 100 public comments via some godforsaken portal, it was 100 conversations in person or on the phone way before a meeting ever occurred.

Well said and great point to become more involved in direct conversation with those impacting our wildlife.

 

[DFS]

Access to the commissioner isn’t an issue for me. I guess I will bypass the channels of how how things are supposed to work.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Access to the commissioner isn’t an issue for me. I guess I will bypass the channels of how how things are supposed to work.

Personal relationships are critical in terms of making changes. If you have access to your commissioner, then exercise that relationship and keep talking to the local biologists & managers.

Squeaky wheels get the grease, but you can't just be a squeaker, you have to squeak in the right ears.

As for the fatigue of showing up - I get it. I have it. But if you don't keep showing up, then you let the bastards win.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Montanans are justified in feeling that their public comment is nothing but feel-goodery.

Dang near ten years ago I remember attending the season setting meetings around Shoulder Seasons. Tons of public comment - 86% opposed - an unreal public consensus for almost any topic. We were told they'd be temporary, they'd be assessed for efficacy and ceased if found to not be. Essentially all BS. This was under a Democrat Governor and his commission. I can see how this story repeated could jade someone.

I'm not nearly as active as lots of folks, but I had an in-person conversation earlier this year with an FWP employee about something I thought was needed in the EMP, that was then incorporated into the new one (something that is to some degree nothing but feel-goodery itself, seeing as how the commission can ignore it). FWIW, it felt good.

Point of it all is, FWP, the Commission, they largely don't represent us. Despite Montana Law around the Public Trust, I just don't feel they do. Now FWP isn't a monolith. In my experience it's mostly dedicated public servants who answer to an appointed head of the snake - slithering the direction the executive branch tells them they're going, because that's who they answer to - Not you or me. The public employees I know do what they can, and they need our support where we can give it.

Because those contingents aren't representative bodies, it doesn't follow though that we shouldn't interact with them, it just means we need to understand the relationship we have with them. This is something I have been thinking about. Your commissioners making moves you want, supporting changes you think will be needed, will only be successfully implemented via persuasion, and nothing else.

It sucks, and it ain't right, but it's where we are at. So all we are left with is the case for what we believe, and the relationships through which we will transmit that information to those with the power to do something about it. Public comment, emails - I increasingly think they are useless. I do them to cover bases. But essentially all these folks can be met with in person, and I think that's where sportsmen should really lean in. Imagine if instead of 100 public comments via some godforsaken portal, it was 100 conversations in person or on the phone way before a meeting ever occurred.

Of course, this doesn't address the sweetheart deals we find out a few days before the meetings.

Bret for Governor.

The god's honest truth to all of this is that massive public comment in and of itself doesn't matter nearly as much as groups want you to believe. It hasn't for a hell of a long time. In 2009, MEPA was gutted to the point where agencies have to solicit comment and acknowledge it, but they don't have to take it under advisement when setting regulations, etc. This was done under the auspices of limiting challenges to natural resource projects, but it was a wide enough net that all comments were performative rather than substantive. Given the make up of the legislature since then, I don't see much of a change in terms of empowering the public through comment.

However, that's not unique to Montana, and so many other states have similar issues at play regarding public input - so the relationships become far more important than a room full of angry people.

In fact, the angry mob is really only effective when there is someone with strong enough relationships with decision makers to help guide the outcome that is desired, and is close at hand to call off the dogs when needed, or subsequently, to turn up the volume when appropriate. I've seen the massive outpouring of comments work opposite of the intention as well, and led to bad votes where as if the tone and tenor would have been different, then a bill or bad regulation would have likely died.

Grassroots advocacy, emails, etc are all critical pieces of the puzzle, but the relationships that people develop over years are far more effective than anything else. I get asked "what can I do to be an effective conservation advocate?" and the answer rarely changes: Get to know the decision makers and let them learn to trust you.

We saved Habitat MT one year because the local DU Chapter lead was also the best man at an appropriator's wedding 30 years ago.

Real & honest relationships, especially with those we disagree with, are the most important thing when it comes to achieving the outcomes you desire.

 

[Elky Welky]

Yep, just your run of the mill keyboard warrior. I’ve never done anything remotely useful for wildlife.

Too busy typing on my warrior keyboard to have any clue what podcast you are referencing. Was that supposed to hurt my feelings?

I’m out. This is going nowhere, as usual. Thinking a lot lately that this forum isn’t worth it anymore.

I, too, have found myself increasingly frustrated on this forum, and have resolved to spend more time watching the conversations and less time trying to add to them. As someone who thoroughly enjoys rhetoric, playing devil's advocate, and good critical argument, it can be hard not to join in the fray. But when it starts to feel like the same 10 people going in circles, wanting to talk but not listen, it becomes frustrating. I already argue for a living and spend much of my free time arguing more as a volunteer. I sometimes just need a break.

But I do think there's a lot of value to be found here, if only to know how others--some who are quite vocal out and about--are thinking. I do think it helps me be a better advocate out there "in the real world."

Please keep it up @Hunting Wife. I, and I'm sure others, certainly enjoy and see the value in what you add to the conversation.