Future Of Old Logging Roads In National Forests, etc.

Sytes

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It's kind of a complicated thing...it's also thinking about others wanting things to not be too easy. I want my kids to have the same opportunities to get away from the crowds by going a little harder where it's hard that I've had. There's a balance point in there somewhere.
That fulcrum point varies between the extremes. Seems many are centered between those two points and from my perspective, these permanently closed old logging roads of the past is a teetering point. For myself, I value these old roads and would value my daughter's use of such.

Maybe churn up the first 50-100 yards with a trail point to deter the criminal motorized activity we may save FS budgeted $$$ to divert for LEO activity to expand.

Meh, cheers for the various perspectives. I'm reading some FS info to better understand the "road quota".
 

RockinU

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I take no issue with that, although I wish more effort was made to deny access on those "gated" roads. I know I'm not the only one to see gates or obstructions defeated...I've even seen posts jacked out of the ground...pisses me off.
 

RockinU

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That fulcrum point varies between the extremes. Seems many are centered between those two points and from my perspective, these permanently closed old logging roads of the past is a teetering point. For myself, I value these old roads and would value my daughter's use of such.

Maybe churn up the first 50-100 yards with a trail point to deter the criminal motorized activity we may save FS budgeted $$$ to divert for LEO activity to expand.

Meh, cheers for the various perspectives. I'm reading some FS info to better understand the "road quota".
I like that...wish I could like it twice, but it seems way too easy, and common sense for a government agencies to implement.
 

shoots-straight

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Heaven forbid some of our elderly and not so in shape hunting family have some easier access to the woods....
Hunting is not just for the cross fit bro brah crowd
A few months before my father died he had a tumor the size of a apple in his chest but still hiked off road and cross country to find a bull. There are special places set aside for handicapped people now. roads that are not accessible to vehicles for all are accessible to those with the designation. Sorry you use all elderly as in favor of such roads. BTW I'm 58 as we speak and hunt wildlerness. Killed (off hand) around 46 Elk too. Dad finished at 58.
 

corndog1

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A few months before my father died he had a tumor the size of a apple in his chest but still hiked off road and cross country to find a bull. There are special places set aside for handicapped people now. roads that are not accessible to vehicles for all are accessible to those with the designation. Sorry you use all elderly as in favor of such roads. BTW I'm 58 as we speak and hunt wildlerness. Killed (off hand) around 46 Elk too. Dad finished at 58.
Read Above "some elderly"
 

shoots-straight

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BTW, we are talking about roads that are being demoed here. This isn't about accessing areas, but moreso of removing roads that put the already roaded area over the plan standard. I think that 2.5 miles per average section is enough roads for all. Some winter range areas the Standard may be less, like 1.5 miles of road per section. Again no expert here just going off my recollection which isn't great.
 

shoots-straight

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Read Above "some elderly"
So what is it your want? All those roads that are being demoed left alone because of a few people that like hunting them? It's a multiple use forest, and I don't like those roads that aren't needed for accessing the area, and lower Elk security . Maybe think of the amount of timber that's lost because that roads there.
 

Sytes

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SS, interesting... Now it's just, "a few people"... What is it? Hoards using these old logging roads that disrupt elk and other wildlife or the 10-20' wide route elk and other wildlife use themselves to route around?

If it's 2.5 or... I'm not opposed to such a defined limit if defined as the Crow flies. I know we see differently on this topic and pretty awesome success by your father and yourself not discounting such though there is more than the diehards who hunt elk. Hell, I consider myself a "diehard" in the elk hunt category though I like the use of said old logging roads blocked from motorized "road hunters"...

To get off the motor road is where I define foot hunting. These 10-20' wide roads are not the disturbance of wildlife some make them out to be. If to plugs right through a calving area, I say yes... Destroy the old road... Nothing spoken is a means to say "every" or "all". Common sense should prevail though not the "common sense" of the two extremes...
 

Greenhorn

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I wasn't talking about driving I was talking about using closed off roads and walking down them not driving. Was actually thinking about others instead of myself. Might give it a try some time
What keeps the elderly from walking down closed off roads? 🙄
 

Straight Arrow

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Sytes, again to the reality of the present usage, as mentioned above, even those 10-20' wide roads with major obstacles or gates are way too often ignored as closed to motors or machines. ATV's, UTV's, motorcycles, mountain bikes, motorized "donkeys", and a variety of other machines merely bypass the obstacle and "improve" the road into posterity.

You don't do that as your wildlife advocacy and hunter ethics dissuade you, but please realize that many, many others do abuse the roads. Simply put, if there is a tree or other hard vegetation growing in that road (regeneration), as well as some serious trench left by culvert removal ... then the abuse is less likely.

BTW, your "every or all" comment is appreciated. Like I often say to grandkids, "Never say never; never say always!" ;)
 

shoots-straight

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SS, interesting... Now it's just, "a few people"... What is it? Hoards using these old logging roads that disrupt elk and other wildlife or the 10-20' wide route elk and other wildlife use themselves to route around?
I guess a follow up is in order here. When I said: "
many hunters, that look for easy routes to hunt,
Refers to a group of hunters that are working hard to not work hard at hunting, or otherwise don't know better. Number wise I'd guess that those are not a majority of hunters, so overall when talking about multiple use and those that want more elk security, longer hunting seasons, vs those that want roads left for hunting use, and to act as a hunting trail, it would be fewer. OK? Splitting hairs to make a point?

The overall roads of 2.5 miles of roads are per 1 square mile of a section of Forest Service managed lands. That's a road that if you straighten it out, would be 2.5 miles in length. They do average it out in zones, so one section might be way over that, so they need to have less in others.
 

Losing_Sanity

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A few months before my father died he had a tumor the size of a apple in his chest but still hiked off road and cross country to find a bull. There are special places set aside for handicapped people now. roads that are not accessible to vehicles for all are accessible to those with the designation. Sorry you use all elderly as in favor of such roads. BTW I'm 58 as we speak and hunt wildlerness. Killed (off hand) around 46 Elk too. Dad finished at 58.
Handicap sticker or not, there are so many people that do not respect these "Challenged" folks to allow them a nice hunt. They seem to take full advantage, legal or otherwise, of the "easy access" with little regard that it's all some people may have.

Sorry for your loss, I'm glad you have good memories.
 

shoots-straight

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Handicap sticker or not, there are so many people that do not respect these "Challenged" folks to allow them a nice hunt. They seem to take full advantage, legal or otherwise, of the "easy access" with little regard that it's all some people may have.

Sorry for your loss, I'm glad you have good memories.
Montana threw out all those people that had documents saying they were handicapped, and started over with a higher bar set. I hope it weeded out a bunch of those cheaters. There's absolutely thousands of miles of lock gated roads for those that can't do the cross country stuff. Also there's thousands of Government trails to walk on that are easier than cross country. We have to give up something to be blessed to hunt 6 weeks of General archery, and 5 weeks of rifle. I think demoed roads is a small price to pay.
 

WyoDoug

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I favor closing many of the old logging roads myself. Keep in mind that they were cut first as a temporary route for logging companies to move timber. They were never intended to be permanent. However, the Forest Service, BLM and others have taken some logging roads and began using them as maintained roads. People that bypass road closure signs and gates or do vandalism to them only ruin access for all of us for a short lived gain.
 

Sytes

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Does anyone have a link to the USFS decommissioned road policy?
Most I've found thus far presents this as a local FS decision.

Simply looking to learn.

The decision to decommission a road will remain a local National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) decision.
 

BuzzH

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The easier the access, the less animals you have around to hunt is a good, general rule of thumb. Animals don't like to be disturbed, that simple.

In order from the worst to best:

Road that is accessible to motorized use.
Trail that is accessible to motorized use.
Roads that are foot/horse traffic only.
Trails that are foot/horse traffic only.
Cross country that is accessible by horse.
Cross country that is accessible by foot only.

There are lots of other negatives to roads and trails besides easier access. Weeds, soil erosion, sedimentation, to name a few. Any road surface also takes away potential for plant growth and lessens the amount of available habitat.

Say an average decent full sized vehicle accessible road surface is 30-40 feet wide, including the cut and fill slopes that prohibit plant growth. 30-40ish feet multiply by 5280 feet of road.

Reduces useable habitat by 3-5 acres for every mile of road. With road densities of 1-2 miles per section, you're reducing the available habitat by 3-10 acres. Pretty significant, IMO.

No question that people, managers, etc. need roads for access...but when road densities increase, the amount of available habitat and wildlife use decline in direct proportion to one another for all kinds of reasons.

Keeping roads to a minimum makes a lot of sense and keeps maintenance costs down.

As for the "old people" argument...they can pound sand. They weren't old their whole lives and its just too bad if you get too old to hunt where you did when you were 20. We're all going to be in that boat, and I'm not so selfish to expect special treatment just because I'm old. I'm not selfish enough to expect wildlife to give up habitat to make my life easier as I get older.
 
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Losing_Sanity

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As for the "old people" argument...they can pound sand. They weren't old their whole lives and its just too bad if you get too old to hunt where you did when you were 20. We're all going to be in that boat, and I'm not so selfish to expect special treatment just because I'm old. I'm not selfish enough to expect wildlife to give up habitat to make my life easier as I get older.
You made some good points in your reply and it is evident that you are passionate about what you believe or like. Good for you! But, so are the "old people" in our society that also have passionate feelings about what they want after retirement. They are just as entitled to that land as you are. For the most part, I feel that was a very insensitive thing to write and selfish to boot. But I'm not going to let it stop me from respecting you and your opinions.

What about our disabled Americans who have not seen an elderly age? Like our disabled veterans, or our disabled in the line of duty first responders? Or those disabled by a careless drunk driver? Or in some other missfortune that someone may need better access? The list goes on. It's no just an age thing, but the elderly are also entitled to access to these lands. These are citizens of our country and deserve every opportunity what any of us are allowed to do. Many did not ask for what they have had to endure. We ensure access in our building codes and public city access. Why not have a prevision for them?

This is of course my opinion, and with these other considerations, I ask you to re-think your opinion as you stated above.
 

Greenhorn

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Where is the tears emoji? Maybe drop in the AARP logo, a link to St Jude's Children's hospital, followed by the national anthem?

All the old, injured, terminally ill, and lazy are equally entitled. They'll just have to walk.
 

wllm1313

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You made some good points in your reply and it is evident that you are passionate about what you believe or like. Good for you! But, so are the "old people" in our society that also have passionate feelings about what they want after retirement. They are just as entitled to that land as you are. For the most part, I feel that was a very insensitive thing to write and selfish to boot. But I'm not going to let it stop me from respecting you and your opinions.

What about our disabled Americans who have not seen an elderly age? Like our disabled veterans, or our disabled in the line of duty first responders? Or those disabled by a careless drunk driver? Or in some other missfortune that someone may need better access? The list goes on. It's no just an age thing, but the elderly are also entitled to access to these lands. These are citizens of our country and deserve every opportunity what any of us are allowed to do. Many did not ask for what they have had to endure. We ensure access in our building codes and public city access. Why not have a prevision for them?

This is of course my opinion, and with these other considerations, I ask you to re-think your opinion as you stated above.
Making a public structure handicap accessible doesn't materially impact that resource, and in fact structures on the national historic register as well historic rail lines can get waivers if making them accessible would be detrimental and impact the nature of that preserved structure.

I agree with the point you are making, I believe that state regulations that give handicapped individuals the ability to shoot from vehicles and/or use more effective means of take are attempting to provide for this opportunity. Allowing handicapped individuals to participate in hunting is important. Making sure they have the ability to hunt every wilderness area is not.
 
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