Forestry

jumpshooter

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Aug 11, 2015
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36
BuzzH,

You are missing a few things here. While Colorado, Wy, ID, MT and Utah may have low income generating lodgpole, other states have much more to offer and the great thing about federal timber sales is they all go in the same pot. Each Region can share in the profits and spread out the losses. Just use California for an example, we are talking about thinning 20 million acres. These forests are significantly over stocked with 200 to 500 trees per acre. Prior to the exclusion of fire, there were probably 50 to 100 trees per acre. Most of these stands are 40 to 60 years old or more at this point. The average diameter tree is going to be 20" dbh or more. That is 200 board feet. If you are thinning even say 100 trees per acre out of the 500, you are talking about 20,000 board feet per acre. I went through the stumpage values in a previous note, so lets just do this simple and say $200/1,000 bd ft. stumpage (logging and trucking removed already). That is $4,000 per acre in revenue. And California has 20 million acres of forest land. That is $80 billion in revenue. That is more than enough to pay for some juniper projects which are going to be total costs. Again, I am just throwing out some generalizations here. Of course, we aren't going to be able to do this in one year or even 10 years.

There are plenty of larger scale projects where things like this are applied, Jackson State Demonstration State Forest in Ca is a 20,000 acre forest which is managed in this manor. There are examples all over the US actually. I pointed to the Arizona Project which is going across 300,000 acres of state, federal, private and tribal lands. They are getting ready to start a 2nd project with 20,000 acres involved.

Another great example is what the Nature Conservancy is doing across several of their projects. Check out some of their work: https://www.nature.org/ourinitiatives/urgentissues/land-conservation/forests/restoring-americas-forests.xml

There are also some other great examples of local support/groups coming together, The Weaverville Community Forest, where an entire community was given control of a large piece of federal ground to try and manage it on a local level. This created local jobs, interest, and a feeling of community.

For years, there was a group called the Quincy Library Group which was trying to make change on our forests, but met so much resistance. It is worth looking at the group for ideas.
 

Straight Arrow

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jumpshooter,

You have provided some interesting and studied anecdotal examples of forest management ... but not even close to reasonably expanding the practices to the huge acreages of forests of the Western USA.

Your lengthy descriptions are noteworthy, but not really a discussion in that the points offered by Buzz have not been addressed, nor have my questions elicited response(s).

'Seems like we are "talking over" one another, discussing two different perspectives relative to forest management and wildfire mitigation, with you sticking to one small acreage solution while ignoring the vastness of the broader challenge.
 

BigHornRam

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jumpshooter,

You have provided some interesting and studied anecdotal examples of forest management ... but not even close to reasonably expanding the practices to the huge acreages of forests of the Western USA.

Your lengthy descriptions are noteworthy, but not really a discussion in that the points offered by Buzz have not been addressed, nor have my questions elicited response(s).

'Seems like we are "talking over" one another, discussing two different perspectives relative to forest management and wildfire mitigation, with you sticking to one small acreage solution while ignoring the vastness of the broader challenge.
Straight Arrow. You seem to have a real difficult time absorbing the information you are given.

From jumpshooter recent link of the Nature Conservancy:


"Currently, a forested area larger than Oregon is at immediate risk to extreme fires, pests and climate change. Future generations of Americans risk losing the natural benefits our forests provide if we do not work to restore forest health now."

"The Nature Conservancy's Restoring America's Forests program is working to reverse these threats by doubling the pace of forest restoration on federal lands to at least 7 million acres a year, in coordination with many partners in 25 states around the country."

They get what is at stake here, and are actively and aggressively doing something about it. This work is happening. Get on board with it, or get out of the way.
 

Straight Arrow

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Get on board with it, or get out of the way.
I am wholeheartedly on board with the CFLR. What has been accomplished is great ... however, seven million acres per year is an immense undertaking and complex ... and is it even enough to stem the fuel - drought momentum? The endeavor is to be widely supported. The strategy is admirable, but only if realistic.

You seem to have a real difficult time absorbing the information you are given.
Too bad you are unable to express yourself without resorting to demeaning statements. Link-Rant on!
 

BigHornRam

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I am wholeheartedly on board with the CFLR. What has been accomplished is great ... however, seven million acres per year is an immense undertaking and complex ... and is it even enough to stem the fuel - drought momentum? The endeavor is to be widely supported. The strategy is admirable, but only if realistic.

Too bad you are unable to express yourself without resorting to demeaning statements. Link-Rant on!
Straight Arrow. You continually mention that your questions have not been answered yet they have been repeatedly, then you resort to calling all examples given antidotal. Your bias does not allow you to absorb the information you have been provided. If you think pointing this out is demeaning you must really get sore reading Buzz's posts.;)

And yes the strategy is realistic. Thanks for all your support SA.
 
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jumpshooter

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Aug 11, 2015
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This really is about that tax code which is tying the hands of the FS and BLM. All they have to do is make a credible case and they are paid with our tax dollars to sue the FS and BLM if a judge says that they have a case. I write a lot of plans like these and some are several hundred pages if not thousand pages. When there is that much information it isn't hard to find an issue to make a case for a judge to hear. This code needs to be changed and the only way to do that is through policy/regulations. If this doesn't change, one party is going to continue to de-fund the FS and BLM and say see this isn't working, so we need to sell off the lands, while the other party has its head in the sand. This all ties into the issue of public lands and keeping them public. This is why the issue is larger than just the current discussion. Change the regulation, let the FS & BLM do what needs to be done (don't let certain political figures uses the fact that the FS & BLM can't do their jobs) and keep the discussion about how the land should be managed, not who should be managing/owning it.....
 
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Straight Arrow

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This really is about that tax code which is tying the hands of the FS and BLM. All they have to do is make a credible case and they are paid with our tax dollars to sue the FS and BLM if a judge says that they have a case. I write a lot of plans like these and some are several hundred pages if not thousand pages. When there is that much information it isn't had to find an issue to make a case for a judge to hear. This code needs to be changed and the only way to do that is through policy/regulations. If this doesn't change, one party is going to continue to de-fund the FS and BLM and say see this isn't working, so we need to sell off the lands, while the other party has its head in the sand. This all ties into the issue of public lands and keeping them public. This is why the issue is larger than just the current discussion. Change the regulation, let the FS & BLM do what needs to be done (don't let certain political figures uses the fact that the FS & BLM can't do their jobs) and keep the discussion about how the land should be managed, not who should be managing/owning it.....
I completely and adamantly agree.
 

BigHornRam

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"Land of Giant Rams"
This really is about that tax code which is tying the hands of the FS and BLM. All they have to do is make a credible case and they are paid with our tax dollars to sue the FS and BLM if a judge says that they have a case. I write a lot of plans like these and some are several hundred pages if not thousand pages. When there is that much information it isn't hard to find an issue to make a case for a judge to hear. This code needs to be changed and the only way to do that is through policy/regulations. If this doesn't change, one party is going to continue to de-fund the FS and BLM and say see this isn't working, so we need to sell off the lands, while the other party has its head in the sand. This all ties into the issue of public lands and keeping them public. This is why the issue is larger than just the current discussion. Change the regulation, let the FS & BLM do what needs to be done (don't let certain political figures uses the fact that the FS & BLM can't do their jobs) and keep the discussion about how the land should be managed, not who should be managing/owning it.....
What you are referring to is the Equal Access to Justice Act and the abuses to that Act. Hell will freeze over before we get the politicians to put an end to the abuses.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Access_to_Justice_Act
 

1_pointer

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About a decade ago a model predicted that the state of Utah would have to remove 50K acres of pinyon/juniper (mostly the latter) just to maintain the current biomass level...
 

jumpshooter

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Thanks BigHornRam. I couldn't remember what it was called. This is the main thing that is holding up proper management of our national forests. This has to change.
 

BigHornRam

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From this morning's outing. One side of the trail is public and one side private.

0826180817.jpg

One is public, one is private.

0826180839.jpg

0826180828.jpg

The elk? They like it all

0826180828a.jpg

Where will the elk be during legal hunting hours? Probably where the green trees are.
 
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