Elk numbers likely NOT to recover in Bitterroot

[elk_hunter]

Serious question here...why do they say the wolves aren't interested in mule deer as much as elk? The taste? Are they comparing fawns/yearlings of both being killed? Is their assertion that it's easier for wolves to take down baby elk over baby deer? Or full grown elk? Elk are certainly much bigger than muleys, but I'd think a pack could take down does much easier than elk. Just curious for you guys with more insight here...

 

[shoots-straight]

elk_hunter,
It is in his findings. I'm not sure what the deal is with mule deer, or Big horn sheep. Our sheep aren't hit much by them. Not to say they won't be. I find mule deer killed by wolves all the time here. So to say they won't kill them is using a broad brush. They do like whitetailed deer on the other hand. That's noted up north in the Flatehead.

 

[BuzzH]

I've got a couple theories...

First one is that deer tend to be more dispersed in small groups, singles, doe and two fawns, etc. Not really a strong herd animal. I would think that would make them a lot less vulnerable, being so spread out over any given area.

Elk, on the other hand, will almost always be grouped up in herds, sometimes in large herds. Easy for wolves to find...and shadow them until they pick one off.

Further, as far as calf mortality. Elk tend to habitually use the same areas year after year for fawning, sometimes many cows use the same general area. As per the Lolo/Selway studies in Idaho, that characteristic of elk calving routines...made some easy pickings for black bears. The bears, like the elk, were habituated to seek out and kill large numbers of calves in pretty small areas.

Deer...good luck if you're a predator. Deer are dispersed over a much larger geographic area when it comes to having their fawns. Plus, deer have a high number of twin fawns to boot.

According to various studies, wolves also kill the living shit out of coyotes. Not sure how much time anyone has spent observing coyotes, but a couple key things. One is that they occupy a much smaller range than wolves, and they, like deer, are spread out over a large area. Secondly, coyotes dont miss much...as in, they get good at finding fawns.

I believe that as far as fawn survival is concerned, I'd rather be dealing with ONE pack of wolves occupying any given area than say 40-50 coyotes. Only so many fawns are going to be found by a pack of wolves...when 40-50+ coyotes, out on their own or in small groups, are in the same area...they'll stumble onto way more fawns, IMO.

I think theres going to be a lot to learn with wolves, there will be things happening that benefit other species...I think mule deer may be one of them. I also think with less coyotes around, we'll also see more mid-small sized predators like fishers, marten, and maybe even lynx. Partly because coyotes kill those smaller predators, and partly because they compete for the same prey species.

Its possible that small game animals, and perhaps even game birds like grouse will become more prolific with less pressure from coyotes.

Its going to be interesting...

 

[shoots-straight]

I have noticed an increase in the smaller animals here. I caught 2 fisher, and got one on the trail cam. I think the coyotes have been hit a little here. Can't say how much. In the Big Hole you really notice the lack of coyotes. They are still there, just seem to be in less numbers. Antelope are increasing really fast there. 20 years ago, we had a quota of 15, now the area is grouped with 329 and I think 450 tags are issued, + doe tags. I'm the first to say, I'm no expert at all when it comes to Mule deer.

[Its going to be interesting.../QUOTE]

I think that's going to be an on going occurrence with this whole process. I'm glad that Hebblewhite's going to do his study here. It's going to make our long term management on everything much clearer.

 

[Sytes]

Great read and informative review. Many get tied in the hype and play off such... grapevine effect advances to a point where once - original legit info has over time perverted to a worthless garbage.

Hey... sounds like our republicans and democrats - worthless garbage.

 

[----]

It's weird, and I might be off my rocker on this, but anyone else notice coyotes trailing wolves? In the area I hunt, I see more coyotes in the areas the elk and wolves are than anywhere else. I figured it was kind of the same thing they do with grizzlies, picking up their scraps. I've read about studies before where wolves kill the coyotes off for competition, but multiple times this year I saw coyotes right on top of fresh wolf tracks.

When I left my elk carcass overnight last year, a coyote came in and chewed on the rib cage, and wolves also came in and circled around it. Wouldn't you think they yotes would get as far away as they could??

I don't know, kind of a mindless ramble, but I've been wondering why it's seemed like that for me.

Many get tied in the hype and play off such... grapevine effect advances to a point where once - original legit info has over time perverted to a worthless garbage.

Amen

 

[elk_hunter]

Randy, you're not off your rocker. I would guess the yotes are hanging around the wolves because they are banking on the fact that the wolves will indeed bring animals down and they might be able to come in and scavenge. But, that's just a guess on my part. Maybe the wolves vs. yotes is on a per-area basis...meaning that maybe in some areas the wolves aren't killing yotes because they aren't threatened by them so both co-exist somewhat peacefully? Not to say that wolves don't kill yotes, because I'm sure they do. I too, observed yote tracks following wolf tracks when I hunted in MT last fall and wondered the same thing.

 

[drahthaar]

Its a given that wolves will not tolerate any other canines in their territories, but I wonder if there are just sooooo many coyotes anymore. They aren't worth anything and I know several trappers that have given up trapping them, don't want to even waste their time. The areas I had my cams up, I get plenty of coyotes mixed in with wolves. I have been wondering the same thing that Randy said, either they are cleaning up scraps, taking down the wounded, or just wising up to the old saying about keeping friends close and enemies closer.

 

[belly-deep]

Good luck with the aerial hunts in the mountains of Western Montana...gonna need a lot of luck...and a lot of airplanes...and spare parts...and some crash test dummies for pilots.

Ever flown in a fixed wing aircraft over Central Idaho and Western Montana? Trying to shoot wolves from a plane in those areas will get you and a pilot dead long before a wolf...

Trapping may be an option, trouble is, there arent many people around anymore that trap. It takes work to trap right, and most wont go through the effort or expense.

I think the only viable option is fed./state trappers and hunting to control numbers....IMO.

If they can dart the bastards they can shoot them, buzz. Do you think they just grow those radio collars naturally???

 

[shoots-straight]

I think most of the wolves collared in Western Montana's valleys are trapped.

 

[BuzzH]

belly-deep,

Stick to subjects you know things about.

Hint: darting wolves out of aircraft isnt one of them.

haha

Prime wolf habitat...central Idaho...got your dart gun warmed up?

Oh, and good luck finding a fixed wing pilot to fly you around. The best pilots I know, and the only ones I'd fly with are out of Challis ID...middle fork aviation.
I dont think Pete Nelson (owner), or any of his pilots, would be flying around the middle fork country seeing if you could dart a wolf in the ass.

Your life expectancy probably wouldnt be a week.

 

[Sytes]

The helicopter would be used as the platform to dart and capture an anticipated 12 gray wolves during their upcoming big game ungulate survey in Big Game units 20A, 26, and 27 (commonly known as the Middle Fork zone), which is within the FC-RONRW.

This is USFWS action intent as of Dec 29, 2009. Using the helicopter as a platform to dart from in its search for grey wolves in Idaho.

The purpose of the project is to issue an authorization to IDFG for the landing of a helicopter and associated aerial darting to collar gray wolves.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r4/sc/dm_heli_landings_122209.pdf

Of course fixed wing is used for recon... That would be some darn good shooting of a dart gun on a wolf from a low flying airplane at... X elevation... through every limb on 1 pine tree x 10+ surrounding a wolf. None the less a pilot considering such adventure.

Just clarifying the actual use of aerial darting and its specific use in Idaho.

 

[BuzzH]

How many were actually darted I wonder?

Also, flying for a darting program in a wilderness area and getting approval is one thing...try getting approval in wilderness for lethal control.

 

[Sytes]

In six days of helicopter work, the crew recently captured 14 of the park's 56 wolves. The park's wolf population has declined precipitously from only two years ago when 171 roamed the territory. In a normal year, about 25 wolves have been captured and collared, Smith said.

Here is an example. May help gauge the ability for helo darting.. (?) This is not specific to the USFWS authorization for Idaho to land in wilderness with the helo... though it is a reasonable example of what helo platforms are capable of... on a given event.

http://www.trib.com/news/state-and-regional/article_7c75a047-d21b-58fc-b4d5-cf64baaa5996.html

 

[BuzzH]

Thanks for the data...interesting.

 

[belly-deep]

Hey buzz,

Stick to subjects you know things about.

Hint: darting wolves out of aircraft isnt one of them.

haha

you're more wise than you even know! you should listen to yourself more often....