Elk bullet in Grizzly country

[jimh406]

Maybe obvious, but compared with any handgun a 300 Win Mag is dramatically more powerful. As noted, any Elk bullet should work at close range.

If you are someone who hunts without one in the chamber, I'd strongly consider also carrying a sidearm. Even a 9mm can kill a Grizzly based on the results of shootings. Sure, bear spray can be good but it won't stop a Grizzly, it only discourages it and only works in the right wind or no wind. A handgun is also useful to have a gun on you while you are processing your kill.

That being said, most people won't come across a Grizzly while hunting, so how real the danger is up to you to decide.

 

[It’s Bucky]

Whatever you choose, practice is more important than whatever you choose.

 

[Wyoming270]

I dont hunt in the small portion of wyoming where grizzlies are prevelant. I do hunt where there are lots of black bears. I carry a pistol chambered in 460 rowland while hunting, and use Hornady interlock bullets to kill every game species I can draw a tag for. never had an issue with these bullets. Even putting 130 grainers in 270 win through elk lengthwise ive never had issues with them coming apart. I would not hesitate to use this bullet on grizzlies, in 270 win or my favorite 300 win mag. My ancestors killed a lot of large bears with soft lead round balls and FFG. i think any quality jacketed big game bullet designed in the last 70 years will serve you well.

 

[MTGamecock]

I guess my question was more about whether, when deciding what bullet to use, people considered potentially having to use the rifle against a bear, or if it's not considered by others. I'm also somewhat curious what everyone uses.

I've never given it a thought. If you have a 180 grain bullet suitable for elk, it will be "suitable" for griz, should you need it. I put the word in quotes, of course, recognizing the many variables in a griz encounter that might effect your ability to put the bullet in the right spot.

Think about it this way: A .44 mag revolver has long been recognized as a reasonable sidearm for defensive carry in grizzly country, typically generating between 1000 and 1200 ft-lbs of energy, depending on the load. Your .300 win mag will likely generate 3-4 times that energy. So why would anybody carrying an elk rifle also carry a sidearm? The ability to get off 5 or so rounds in a matter of seconds, of course. Also, in a quick encounter at close range (which is the only range in which you are likely to articulate a strong self-defense argument), I have a lot more confidence in drawing quickly and getting a quick sight picture with my pistol than with my scoped rifle slung over my shoulder.

I carry bear spray on the left side of my bino harness and a 10mm Glock with 10+1 rounds on my right hip because I like having options and sometimes am known to hike into a stiff headwind. I hope I never have to use either one. Also, nobody ever wants to become an expert on this topic based on experience. Fortunately, very few of us do.

 

[Laelkhunter]

Swift A-Frame would be my choice if 1- You can find them, and 2- If they shoot well out of your rife. They are similar to the Nosler Partition but are bonded and will hold together better than a non-bonded bullet.

 

[El Jason]

I guess my question was more about whether, when deciding what bullet to use, people considered potentially having to use the rifle against a bear,

No

 

[Pucky Freak]

I have no practice using a bolt action rifle as a personal defense weapon, so it’s basically useless to me anyways. I’m not shooting a bear if it bluff charges or rears up either.

At the end of the day your decision on what elk load to use will have about 0.01% relevance to bear safety.

 

[2rocky]

While my time hunting elk in Griz country was around 10 years ago, my strategy is the same...Rifle and bullet picked for proven elk killing ability.
New in the last 2 years Bear Spray.

Were I packing and guiding, then I might consider a pistol or a 45-70 lever action with Hard cast bullets.

In either case, we take pack stock with us and pack out game day of kill.....

to paraphrase a self defense maxim...."Don't go anywhere in Griz country with a gun, you wouldn't go without one."

 

[Mustangs Rule]

I'm currently working up the load I'll be hunting with this fall in Wyoming for bull elk. I am trying some loads with 180gr Barnes TTSX, as I've had great luck in the past with other rifles(this year I'll be shooting a Benelli Lupo chambered in 300 Win Mag), and the thought of having to use the rifle to defend myself- a tough bullet is what I want, so it's a win-win.

I'm just curious as to those of you lucky enough to reside in the West: do you give much thought to grizzly when deciding on a bullet for elk? Am I just overthinking things, like my mind tends to work, because I have to think about ballistics daily? Obviously, if I do not get acceptable accuracy, I will choose a different load.

What bullet do you

Here is the First bottom line

"Although bear spray was 92% effective by our definition of success, it is important to note that 98% of persons carrying it were uninjured after a close encounter with bears."

https://www.bearwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/efficacy-of-bear-spray-smith-et-al.-2010.pdf#:~:text=Herrero%20and%20Higgins%20%281998%29%20analyzed%2066%20nonexperimental%20incidents,behavior%20in%2094%25%20%2815%20of%2016%29%20of%20incidents.

Here is the Last bottom line

When people use a firearm as a first line of defense against a bear attack, only 68% of those people come away unharmed. 32% sustain injuries, and 100% of the bears get seriously injured.

Do the math, using a firearm as a first line of defense against a bear attack results in a 15X greater chance of being seriously injured.

Also, what was stated in post #21 about wind preventing bear spray from being effective has been proven totally untrue. Read this study, It is a solid product of the very best scientific research study our best bear experts have ever produced.

Am I anti-gun, no way. I always carry a firearm as a second line of defense when hunting or hiking in bear country, but bear spray comes FIRST. When on my two "live of the land" small game hunting adventures in Alaska, I always brought my 35 Whelen downloaded with 38 caliber lead pistol bullets for grouse and hare. It offered the second line of bear defense if needed with real bullets, which were always in my chamber until I was ready to shoot something for supper.

I used to live in Wyoming just south of the Grizzley filled Wind River Range. I hunted elk and antelope exclusively in the high mountain meadows surrounded by Aspen.

When hunting antelope, I used in my .270 super TUFF 180 grain round nosed Barnes originals with a SD of .332.

Regarding trusting a 9mm auto for grizz, as stated in post #21, Just ask any African PH how he felt about using a 9mm for lion.

Simply an unrealistic line of thought expressed in post #21

During my wanderings in the Wind River Range many decades ago I always carried a S &W 629, 44 mag with a max load of heavy hard cast bullets. And I was ever so grateful when bear spray came out. The 44 mag in a pistol is way less powerful than a 30-30.

I recall one late afternoon elk hunting in the Wind River Range, when to get back to camp before dark i needed to use a canyon elk trail on which I saw the fresh tracks of a sow Grizzley and her cub.

The track patterns of their toes and claws were unmistakable, fat, no space between them, and minimum arc unlike black bears.

I proceeded on the trail with my elk rifle, a 30-06 loaded with 250 grain Barnes Originals slung over my shoulder and my bear spray in my hands blowing my whistle.

The duration of most bear attacks is a couple seconds. Swat your face and leave. If ready and with bear spray in hand you can respond effectively sending out a huge circle of a powerful spray even up close.

Being able to do that with any firearm is pure fantasy.

MR

 

[Straight Arrow]

The duration of most bear attacks is a couple seconds. Swat your face and leave. If ready and with bear spray in hand you can respond effectively sending out a huge circle of a powerful spray even up close.

Being able to do that with any firearm is pure fantasy.

Unfortunately, the quick-draw pistoleers don't believe the reality.

Another interesting consideration is that even after extensive investigation and analysis of a grizzly shooting, with conclusion that it was "self-defense", there was strong suspicion that it was unnecessary and no imminent threat had occurred. Once the bear is dead it's difficult to determine if it was a bluff charge or a real threat.

 

[It’s Bucky]

Here is the First bottom line

"Although bear spray was 92% effective by our definition of success, it is important to note that 98% of persons carrying it were uninjured after a close encounter with bears."

https://www.bearwise.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/efficacy-of-bear-spray-smith-et-al.-2010.pdf#:~:text=Herrero%20and%20Higgins%20%281998%29%20analyzed%2066%20nonexperimental%20incidents,behavior%20in%2094%25%20%2815%20of%2016%29%20of%20incidents.

Here is the Last bottom line

When people use a firearm as a first line of defense against a bear attack, only 68% of those people come away unharmed. 32% sustain injuries, and 100% of the bears get seriously injured.

Do the math, using a firearm as a first line of defense against a bear attack results in a 15X greater chance of being seriously injured.

Also, what was stated in post #21 about wind preventing bear spray from being effective has been proven totally untrue. Read this study, It is a solid product of the very best scientific research study our best bear experts have ever produced.

Am I anti-gun, no way. I always carry a firearm as a second line of defense when hunting or hiking in bear country, but bear spray comes FIRST. When on my two "live of the land" small game hunting adventures in Alaska, I always brought my 35 Whelen downloaded with 38 caliber lead pistol bullets for grouse and hare. It offered the second line of bear defense if needed with real bullets, which were always in my chamber until I was ready to shoot something for supper.

I used to live in Wyoming just south of the Grizzley filled Wind River Range. I hunted elk and antelope exclusively in the high mountain meadows surrounded by Aspen.

When hunting antelope, I used in my .270 super TUFF 180 grain round nosed Barnes originals with a SD of .332.

Regarding trusting a 9mm auto for grizz, as stated in post #21, Just ask any African PH how he felt about using a 9mm for lion.

Simply an unrealistic line of thought expressed in post #21

During my wanderings in the Wind River Range many decades ago I always carried a S &W 629, 44 mag with a max load of heavy hard cast bullets. And I was ever so grateful when bear spray came out. The 44 mag in a pistol is way less powerful than a 30-30.

I recall one late afternoon elk hunting in the Wind River Range, when to get back to camp before dark i needed to use a canyon elk trail on which I saw the fresh tracks of a sow Grizzley and her cub.

The track patterns of their toes and claws were unmistakable, fat, no space between them, and minimum arc unlike black bears.

I proceeded on the trail with my elk rifle, a 30-06 loaded with 250 grain Barnes Originals slung over my shoulder and my bear spray in my hands blowing my whistle.

The duration of most bear attacks is a couple seconds. Swat your face and leave. If ready and with bear spray in hand you can respond effectively sending out a huge circle of a powerful spray even up close.

Being able to do that with any firearm is pure fantasy.

MR

Good point on the bear spray and duration of attack.

You could pack the 35 Whelen, Super Tuff 180 round nose, 44 mag, or 250 Barnes Original's, and I could pack a 22lr pistol, and we both likely have the same experience and statistical data with stopping a charging grizzly with a firearm (zero). Your choice is more about making you feel safe mentally even though you don’t actually have any first hand statistical data about how those cartridges/firearms would actually work. I don’t mean this to sound contentious at all, just pointing that out for the OP.

Maybe you have had to stop a charging bear though? Would love to hear how they worked.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Unfortunately, the quick-draw pistoleers don't believe the reality.

Another interesting consideration is that even after extensive investigation and analysis of a grizzly shooting, with conclusion that it was "self-defense", there was strong suspicion that it was unnecessary and no imminent threat had occurred. Once the bear is dead it's difficult to determine if it was a bluff charge or a real threat.

Absolutely true. All any bear has to do is stand on it's hind legs for a better look and it is assumed to be charging. Sportsman/hunters lose opportunities to hunt bear legally during hunting seasons because of these losses.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Good point on the bear spray and duration of attack.

You could pack the 35 Whelen, Super Tuff 180 round nose, 44 mag, or 250 Barnes Original's, and I could pack a 22lr pistol, and we both likely have the same experience and statistical data with stopping a charging grizzly with a firearm (zero). Your choice is more about making you feel safe mentally even though you don’t actually have any first hand statistical data about how those cartridges/firearms would actually work. I don’t mean this to sound contentious at all, just pointing that out for the OP.

Maybe you have had to stop a charging bear though? Would love to hear how they worked.

My father supported my mom, my sister and I by being an honest hard working gambler. His mind so was sharp as a tack for numbers and symbols that when he was drafted and tested he was trained to be a cold breaker during WW2.

He taught me to always learn, respect and follow the odds in all endeavors. I have.

At one now distant point in my life I was a licensed hunting guide. Too many clients showed up out of shape and with very poor shooting skills when they had to leave the shooting bench and function out of doors

One of my closest friends now is a licensed elk hunting guide. Things have not changed. Most clients are overweight and very poor shots when afield.

At some point I so tired of being a hunting guide, I switched to outdoor education, with lots of field classes in bear and Mt Lion country.

Eventually overhead took too much money, one area being liability insurance.

I took it upon myself to absolutely acquire the maximum amount of knowledge about bears and bear attacks possible, always staying current on the subject worldwide. Canada has produced some of the best research which overwhelmingly supports the use of bear spray over any firearms.

Reading so many hunters here on Hunt Talk talking about their “bears guns” and not giving bear spray its deserved credit reminds me of my dad telling me about suckers he gambled with and constantly beat and won their money, over and over.

They bet on luck and did not really study and follow the odds. Their over confidence was bombastic.

In the course of my lifes’readings/studies on bears, one brown bear shooting incident stands out. It was in Jack O’Connor book “Big Game Animals of North America. In it he offers full details about two exceedingly experienced and fully seasoned outdoors men who worked for the Alaska F and G.

They were both superb riflemen.

They encountered an aggressive brown bear, which charged them. It took five well placed all lethal shots to finally put the bear down. It would keep getting up after being shot, taking three rounds from a 300 Win Mag and two from a 30-06.

I also read how Elmer Kieth, one of the greatest hand gunners the world ever produced, ran into a grizzly, while horse packing on a narrow mountain trail. He shot it between the eyes with a hot-rodded 44 special he loaded near 44 magnum power.

It dropped dead, but that Elmer Kieth.

And yes, I did find you to sound contentious. but still thank you for your response to my post.

 

[jimh406]

Also, what was stated in post #21 about wind preventing bear spray from being effective has been proven totally untrue.

Go outside with a strong wind spray anything upwind. It may go upwind but it's going to be coming back on you, too. Theorize what happens when you spray yourself with bear spray. Maybe you consider spraying yourself to be effective.

Regarding trusting a 9mm auto for grizz, as stated in post #21, Just ask any African PH how he felt about using a 9mm for lion.

Of course, I didn't say trust a a 9mm. If you bothered to look, there are documented cases of 9mms killing Grizzlies.

Bottom line, you can have your opinions, but don't put words in other peoples mouths. You aren't very good at it.

 

[MTLabrador]

There sure are a lot of grizzlies killed with handguns every year in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and Alaska that might not agree that handguns are worthless for bear defense. I’d also ask Phil Shoemaker if you don’t think a 9mm is perfectly suitable for the job, even on a big coastal brown bear.

Spray is great in theory, but the often quoted Alaska study has some serious issues, and it isn’t foolproof in the field either.

 

[Mustangs Rule]

Go outside with a strong wind spray anything upwind. It may go upwind but it's going to be coming back on you, too. Theorize what happens when you spray yourself with bear spray. Maybe you consider spraying yourself to be effective.

Of course, I didn't say trust a a 9mm. If you bothered to look, there are documented cases of 9mms killing Grizzlies.

Bottom line, you can have your opinions, but don't put words in other peoples mouths. You aren't very good at it.

All bear sprays are not created equal. The difference lies not just in the quality and quantity of the irritant but also in the power and durability of the propellent.

And they have greatly improved over the decades.

One of the things I taught in my field natural history classes was kill site evaluation. Different predators have different killing styles and eating habits.

I would never do a fresh kill site evaluation class in Grizzly country but even older picked over sites offer a lot.

So just to have the experience of getting wind blow back bear spray, i did put a big blast into the wind and wanted to feel the results. I wanted to see if i could still function in a leadership position in a crisis.

It was very challenging, but I could.

Now if you study the research conclusions offered, you will see that wind direction did not reduce the effectiveness of the spray on bears.. It still worked when directions were followed.

It is amazing there is even a felt recoil when the full blast is released and maintained. Towards the end of recommended service life I have tested many cans of bear spray over decades.

Lastly, I read that one of the largest grizzlies that was ever killed was killed by a treed native woman in Alaska with a .22 rimfire shot in the bear's ear. Everything has been killed with everything.

I think it is important to stay at least within the realm of reason when suggesting possibilities for bear defense.

Thank you for your post

 

[mtmuley]

I might have these out of order.
Bullet threads.
Scope threads.
Rifle threads.
Boot threads.
Grizzly protection threads.
There's one more. Might rank higher. I'll think of it. mtmuley