Do you guys really believe that all ATV riders break the law?

[AKHighmark]

Where in any of those examples is anyone breaking the law? Sad that people got killed yes, but against the law?

Where are the people being stupid? No examples sited that I can see.

I would guess that you aren't a parent due to you insensitive comments regarding children getting killed. I truly feel sorry for you.

 

[cjcj]

EVERYbody.....including the Gunner...Sounds like these ATV`s are possesed!! [Stephen King]and [Christine}...Maybee we need a Mass ATV exorcism...dodo..dodo.do.do...

 

[JoseCuervo]

I thought all the ATVs have stickers on them saying "Not to be operated by people under 16", or something like that....

But, here we have examples of people letting 8 year olds drive them.

Do you think these were just "accidents" that happen, or do you think that somebody (the parent?) did something stupid?

My premise is that people don't think when they get on ATVs, and based on the AZ guys believing that the entire state of AZ was open to ATVs, and the number of Forests that are shutting down the ATVs, and then the numbers of deaths, it is obvious something causes otherwise smart people to be stupid.

And yes, I do have kids. One of them is a Class III Kayaker at age 11, been hunting in Africa, and spends weeks in the Frank Church Wilderness every year.... Don't feel sorry for us, but you are welcome to be envious....

 

[AKHighmark]

Not all ATV's have that sticker...there are models made for those under 16.

I let my kids ride their sleds all the time...My oldest is 6. They are supervised all the time and they are kid models.

"Don't feel sorry for us, but you are welcome to be envious"

Not likely...We live in Alaska.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Originally posted by AKHighmark:

"Don't feel sorry for us, but you are welcome to be envious"

Not likely...We live in Alaska.

Then you should be grateful to me for all the $$$$ I pump into your economy, hunting and fishing up there....

 

[AKHighmark]

"Then you should be grateful to me for all the $$$$ I pump into your economy, hunting and fishing up there...."

You came here and spent a couple thousand? Thank you for you contribution.

I'll continue to thank the Oil companies and power companies that spend Millions with my company every year.

 

[AKHighmark]

\

Your kind of thinking would prevent my kids from doing this.....No thanks!!!!!!

 

[Ten Bears]

I think law-abiding citizens automatically start breaking the law when they get on ATVs. Therefore, we must ban them all.

Did you get that format from your freinds in the gun control lobby?

I was driving a pickup truck at age 8, and that was not legal at the time, but necessary. Should we all support the illegalization of pickups now? One more for you EG

 

[Ten Bears]

Just show me where it says I can't load dead critters on my ATV in AZ at all.
Maybe I'd haul my ATV down there just to haul out critters for cjcj, cfree, or delw......

It's put up or sh... up time.
Just show me where it says I can't load dead critters on my ATV in AZ at all.

 

[guppie9]

Gunner-

You need to be VERY careful about making a statement with the word "everyone" in it. To say that EVERY ATV rider is breaking the law is well...I don't have a word to go here that wouldn't seem insulting, and I really try not to get personal on here. Really, though, you cannot make blanket statements like that and expect people to back you up. Once again, though, if I follow your logic that even the vast majority of riders are breaking the law, than that means that we should also ban all motor vehicles as the vast majority (notice I didn't say EVERYONE)of drivers break the law by speeding (even 1 mph over is breaking the law), not stopping completely for stop signs, not using turn signals, etc. Are you for banning all motor vehicles then???

AKhighmark - I agree 100% with you...maybe us Alaskans are the only ones who can use off road vehicles responsibly!!!

 

[JoseCuervo]

Gusieppe,

Are we arguing the difference between 99% and 100% break the law??? I think I will just round up to ALL of them....

Look at the articles I posted on NEW closures of ATVs on Public Lands. And then in IDaho, Fish and Game is restricting units that will not allow "hunting" (which was already illegal on an ATV) from an ATV. And the head of the FS, Bosworth said ATVs were one of the top 4 threats to our Forest Service lands.

I do not think all those actions/restrictions/laws are being passed because of some small minority that causes a problem. Do you think we would have all the backlash if it was only .0000001% that were breaking the laws???

I am sure there are nice kids on skateboards hanging around the mall after hours, but I am not gonna waste my time sorting the troublemakers from the good kid.

As for your analogy, people driving over the speed limit, the funny thing is that we ALL speed, and we ALL break the law. But we don't deny it, and we don't blame it on some unknown 2%. It is the denial and the steadfast refusal to address their issues that lose the ATV crowd their support. Look at this thread, the AZ boys refused to even call, look at maps, or ask if they were within the law.

AKHigmark and Gusieppe,
I think you Alaskans are starting to wake up to some of the issues, and realize that your natural resources aren't unlimited and available for constant abuse. Didn't Alaska start passing restrictions on Cruise Ships, including bans on discharges in Coastal waters???

 

[Ten Bears]

EG, how many registered ATVs are there in the US(lets make it simple, just do Idaho)? How much is 10% of that? How many fish cops and LEOs are there in Idaho? If 10% of ATV riders are doing so illegally, how many illegal riders are there per inforcement officer? While you see things as "restrictions", I see the as "designations". We have more areas "designated for" ATV travel now then ever before.

BTW, as a special request from some freinds(for those few on this board that mightnot realize it, they are people that like you, and like to have you around ), I and my ATV will be traveling to southern Idaho for the deer season opener on OCT 5 (actually I will be there on the 2nd for some preseason scouting festivities).

 

[guppie9]

As for your analogy, people driving over the speed limit, the funny thing is that we ALL speed, and we ALL break the law. But we don't deny it, and we don't blame it on some unknown 2%. It is the denial and the steadfast refusal to address their issues that lose the ATV crowd their support

But I bet if there was serious talk about banning motor vehicles because of law breakers, people would start thinking this way. People would start denying that they break the law.

That aside, I don't think we are that far apart on this issue. My only complaint is the insistence by the anti-ATV crowd that EVERY ATV rider is breaking the law. We will have to agree to disagree that even the majority of ATV riders are breaking the law. You feel that they are and I feel that they aren't. You posted several articles as "examples" of law breaking ATV riders. As AKHighmark pointed out, there was certainly some stupidity involved, but no one broke any laws. Fortunately stupidity is not against the law or I imagine EVERYONE would be guilty!!!

As for the AZ boys (of which I waas one before I moved)...once again I think this is a semantic debate. CJCJ and others were trying to make the point that there are areas in AZ where taking your ATV cross country is legal. You seemed to not want to concede that point which was ticking them off. Conversely, they seemed to not want to acknowledge the fact that the land owner (private, BLM, State, FS, etc.) has control over whether or not someone can ride off road.

The whole issue is rather confusing. If ADFG can write citations on non-state land for off road violations, than why can't they tell a rider that they are within the law? It seems that if they can do one, they should be able to do the other. The whole issue that MD got into with the out of date maps is a problem as well. I beleive that MD went FAR beyond what most people would do. If an official told me that what I was doing was legal, why would I question them unless I happened to have other knowledge? I don't think it is unreasonable for someone to go to the proper officials, ask for a ruling and then ACCEPT what they say. I wouldn't call that ignorance of the law because the person made a reasonable effort to find out what the law was from the proper authorities.

Than again, maybe this is a larger problem in the lower 48. I don't see any major problems with ORV's up here. People who live in Alaska love Alaska and do everything they can to protect it. There are plenty of beautiful trails that allow ORV use and no need to go making your own. And yes, we did recently place even tighter restrictions on dumping in our coastal waters. We didn't particularly care for sewage in our pool. That is one of life's oldest rules, don't pee in the pool. You also shouldn't poop where you eat, and considering how much fishing we do up here, it seemed like a good idea to crack down (no pun intended!).

 

[Ten Bears]

Eg, I think itis safe to say "we" (more then me) are still waiting for your answer:

Just show me where it says I can't load dead critters on my ATV in AZ at all.
Maybe I'd haul my ATV down there just to haul out critters for cjcj, cfree, or delw......

It's put up or sh... up time.
Just show me where it says I can't load dead critters on my ATV in AZ at all.

 

[Casper]

I'll prolly regret making my first post in this thread but....

On Topic: I think many, most, if not all ATV/OHV users do break the law, knowingly or not, deliberately or not. The reason for this is simple EVERYONE no matter how saintly they are breaks at least one law a day, it is just a way of life anymore, speeding, spiting on the sidewalk, masticating with you mouth open, there is too many laws to always keep track of. So they may be unknowingly breaking the law.

A better question would be "how many impact or affect others in a negative way thru destruction of land, quiet, and or safety!"

As this thread has shown it is easier to say "I'm right you aren't" than to say "oops, you are right!" Were I live in Arizona I see hundreds of ATV (specifically ATV) riders on EVERY major holiday weekend trespassing, destroying private property, vandalizing private property, and doing hundreds of other minor crimes (both legal and to their sport) All of them when told they are trespasser take a huffy attitude and act like you are some kind of ECO-nut for telling them to get off your or your neighbors property (cause she wasn't home.) And this is just at my area, when I hunt I see others driving on CLOSED forest roads, off trails, and even hunting from a moving vehicle which is actually illegal according to AZ G&F. Do I see the numbers I see at home? No, but I do see enough each season just in the unit I'm hunting to know it happens. Personally if current laws were enforced with STIFF penalties I think the problem would solve itself, but many times officers I've talked with don't bother to even try since they are unable to catch them or the case often gets thrown out since it is just a petty offense.

Now About this Thread's posts....

CJ hate to say it but you were wrong... Partially, then again so was Buzz, Elkgunner, and Ithica, to a degree... you were all arguing about what wasn't said, Neither of you stated clearly that it was or was not legal EVERYWHERE in AZ, there are AREA'S and TIMES when off road use for retrieval of downed game isn't allowed.

Basically to clear up a point stated repeatedly in the thread.

The whole issue is rather confusing. If AZGF can write citations on non-state land for off road violations, than why can't they tell a rider that they are within the law? It seems that if they can do one, they should be able to do the other.

This one is AMazingly simple, at least I thought so. Basically think of Law as a 12 step program, with a more steps, the US Constitution is the top step, followed by federal law, then state law, then county law, lastly local city/town/village law. A police officer from podunk whereever can arrest you for breaking a federal law such as ownership of an unregister Class three weapon, but must then turn you over to the proper "agencies" for prosecution. A good example of this would be the federal law prohibiting possession of firearms by convicted felons, it is an instant 5 year sentence. Just because many local police agencies fail to press the charges when felons are caught with weapons, does not mean it isn't still illegal, they just have decided not to waste the effort. Generally one agency won't trample on the specific laws of another (i.e. ATF and EPA) while investigating a crime, but MAY give evidence over to the agency that has jurisdiction over those area's.

In Arizona for example, AZ Game and Fish wardens are sworn officers of the law, that means they can cite or arrest you for any law broken. Do they always do that, no, they are human and as such sometimes "give" leeway to you, or are just outright lazy. If you kill you animal and discover it's 1/4 mile to the nearest road, and at the road stands both a AZ G&F warden and a FS/BLM/state trust warden one may say it is ok to drive there while the other may cite you if you do. Who would be right? The land owner/manager would be since their laws are given precedence over G&F.

Well Folks that was my $.02


BTW Nice Forum, I look forward to seeing pics from your successful hunts over the next 3-4 months. I'll be back next year rearin and ready to go hopefully for a late spring hunt.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Caper,

Welcome aboard, and if you keep writing intelligent posts like the above, you will not likely fit in...

 

[Ten Bears]

Welcome aboard CASPER.

 

[Moosie]

Casper... Nice way to cut your Teeth !!!!

Welcome aboard !!

 

[cjcj]

Hey Casper welcome to the "dark side", Next time we will just send it to you for "arbitration" {Good Post]

to be [fair and balanced] I was also "right" as was.......Buzz/Ithaca/Gunner and others.

 

[280]

casper schooled gunner and crew