What'd I do wrong? Bugle in the wrong situation?

[dwlandman]

Just got back from a Northern NM archery hunt and wanted to talk through some of the Elk encounters my brother & I had. I've hunted archery elk a couple years now, but this is the first time we had real action. We first found the elk up high around 10k+. Bulls were bugling in the middle of the night & I could usually get response bugles until 30 min after sunrise along with an occasional bugle deep into sunset. On Tuesday morning (Day 2) we found a bull that was "playing ball" coming closer & responding quickly to us as we ascended the mtn. After an incredible back and forth Lip Bawl session and alot of tree raking, the bull charged in & my brother ended up putting on a good shot and recovered him within 100yds.

I had a Tag also so we continued to hunt. A few days later we heard another bull up the mtn & and started cow calling to him, we closed the gap to maybe 200yds, so we began ramping up to lip bawlin and raking. deja vu right? A couple cows and spikes from his herd came down within 15 yds to inspect but the big bull never sounded angry & ended up stayed high. I think the cow that winded us below ended up running back and spooking the bull.

The high country ended up getting a little busy with 4 wheelers on closed roads & I remembered seeing rubs along the road coming in so we dropped 2000' of elevation and ended up sitting over a wooded pond not too far from several hunters camps. I was cow calling every 15 min or so & eventually had a spike come visit. As spikey was at the pond, a bull a few hundred yards up the hill bugled. I thought it was game time again.. PLAY BALL, so I let er rip right back at him. He didn't bugle immediately back, only sounding off a few minutes after mine each time. He stayed up high and sounded like he was pacing back and forth, but never coming down the hill before going silent after 15 min or so.

That incredible hunt on day 2 made me feel like every bull was gonna play ball the same way.. but I feel like both of the other encounters I read the situation wrong and should've stuck with the soft cow calls & maybe the big feller would've come in? I'm sure you guys also have plenty of "what if's" like I do after coming out empty handed on a hunt, so I want yall's opinion... HOW do you read the bulls temperament & what would you have done differently?
also, I'm not really coming out empty handed since my brother promised half his meat to me for the assist. Pic attached. Hope yall's September is going well!

 

[Big Sky Guy]

Just got back from a Northern NM archery hunt and wanted to talk through some of the Elk encounters my brother & I had. I've hunted archery elk a couple years now, but this is the first time we had real action. We first found the elk up high around 10k+. Bulls were bugling in the middle of the night & I could usually get response bugles until 30 min after sunrise along with an occasional bugle deep into sunset. On Tuesday morning (Day 2) we found a bull that was "playing ball" coming closer & responding quickly to us as we ascended the mtn. After an incredible back and forth Lip Bawl session and alot of tree raking, the bull charged in & my brother ended up putting on a good shot and recovered him within 100yds.

I had a Tag also so we continued to hunt. A few days later we heard another bull up the mtn & and started cow calling to him, we closed the gap to maybe 200yds, so we began ramping up to lip bawlin and raking. deja vu right? A couple cows and spikes from his herd came down within 15 yds to inspect but the big bull never sounded angry & ended up stayed high. I think the cow that winded us below ended up running back and spooking the bull.

The high country ended up getting a little busy with 4 wheelers on closed roads & I remembered seeing rubs along the road coming in so we dropped 2000' of elevation and ended up sitting over a wooded pond not too far from several hunters camps. I was cow calling every 15 min or so & eventually had a spike come visit. As spikey was at the pond, a bull a few hundred yards up the hill bugled. I thought it was game time again.. PLAY BALL, so I let er rip right back at him. He didn't bugle immediately back, only sounding off a few minutes after mine each time. He stayed up high and sounded like he was pacing back and forth, but never coming down the hill before going silent after 15 min or so.

That incredible hunt on day 2 made me feel like every bull was gonna play ball the same way.. but I feel like both of the other encounters I read the situation wrong and should've stuck with the soft cow calls & maybe the big feller would've come in? I'm sure you guys also have plenty of "what if's" like I do after coming out empty handed on a hunt, so I want yall's opinion... HOW do you read the bulls temperament & what would you have done differently?
also, I'm not really coming out empty handed since my brother promised half his meat to me for the assist. Pic attached. Hope yall's September is going well!

I've subscribed to Joel Turner's analogy of elk in a bar. Seems to make a lot of sense to me and at least gives me a guideline and playbook to be consistent with. There are several youtube videos you can watch where he describes it. I've called in almost all the bulls we've seen or heard this year (n=7/8) but still haven't got a shot so take it with a grain of salt. Seems to be working better than before when I was like you and didn't really have any strategy and just bugled or cow called or whatever I felt like was "right" at the moment. Quick summary below:

1. Primarily calf call to locate during the day. If you KNOW a bull is alone and can get close enough for him to hear you OK to cow call then. When/if you cow call to a bull that has cows, his cows don't want him to leave to go with the other cow (you), so he likely won't - especially if those cows are putting out for him. We make the mistake of thinking the bull is "running" the cows, but the reality is the bull is chasing them wherever they lead. If a bull is alone a bugle may or may not work, again depending on his mood.

2. Don't bugle after sunrise unless you are "in the zone, 1-200 yards" of the bull and know he has cows.
a. Never use a chuckle, when you are bugling to a bull with a chuckle you are depending on an emotional response to fight from him. Bugle without a chuckle is directed towards his cows (if he has any) and he doesn't really have a choice then but to come and investigate.

To answer your question, I would have been calf calling. Once the bugle sounded, did it have a chuckle - yes, bull has cows, no, bull is alone. Probably would have cut distance (most guys aren't aggressive enough in elk hunting), then if he had cows would have done a bugle-to-cow no chuckle and/or some calf calls. If bull was alone then I would have calf/cow called after closing distance.

Again, haven't got a shot this year and I'm not an expert caller by any stretch. Brush in way, distance just out of range, coming in after dark and most recently full draw at 10 yards but bolted right before I settled pin (wind I think?), so I still have similar what-if's. Overall I think the biggest "mistake" you may have made was staying put, especially with two of you I would have spaced out with shooter 30-40 yards ahead and cut distance.

 

[Shaq2424]

If a bull is bugling repeatedly without you calling that is when we get super aggressive and go after the bull. Once we get close to his kitchen, we start cutting him off.

 

[MNElkNut]

A bull will often bugle on his way to a water hole to see if there is another bull already there. He isn't looking for a fight, so if you respond with a bugle, many times they stay away.

 

[dwlandman]

A bull will often bugle on his way to a water hole to see if there is another bull already there. He isn't looking for a fight, so if you respond with a bugle, many times they stay away.

I had no idea about this, but makes alot sense. Was my first time hunting over a water source.

 

[dwlandman]

I've subscribed to Joel Turner's analogy of elk in a bar. Seems to make a lot of sense to me and at least gives me a guideline and playbook to be consistent with. There are several youtube videos you can watch where he describes it. I've called in almost all the bulls we've seen or heard this year (n=7/8) but still haven't got a shot so take it with a grain of salt. Seems to be working better than before when I was like you and didn't really have any strategy and just bugled or cow called or whatever I felt like was "right" at the moment. Quick summary below:

1. Primarily calf call to locate during the day. If you KNOW a bull is alone and can get close enough for him to hear you OK to cow call then. When/if you cow call to a bull that has cows, his cows don't want him to leave to go with the other cow (you), so he likely won't - especially if those cows are putting out for him. We make the mistake of thinking the bull is "running" the cows, but the reality is the bull is chasing them wherever they lead. If a bull is alone a bugle may or may not work, again depending on his mood.

2. Don't bugle after sunrise unless you are "in the zone, 1-200 yards" of the bull and know he has cows.
a. Never use a chuckle, when you are bugling to a bull with a chuckle you are depending on an emotional response to fight from him. Bugle without a chuckle is directed towards his cows (if he has any) and he doesn't really have a choice then but to come and investigate.

To answer your question, I would have been calf calling. Once the bugle sounded, did it have a chuckle - yes, bull has cows, no, bull is alone. Probably would have cut distance (most guys aren't aggressive enough in elk hunting), then if he had cows would have done a bugle-to-cow no chuckle and/or some calf calls. If bull was alone then I would have calf/cow called after closing distance.

Again, haven't got a shot this year and I'm not an expert caller by any stretch. Brush in way, distance just out of range, coming in after dark and most recently full draw at 10 yards but bolted right before I settled pin (wind I think?), so I still have similar what-if's. Overall I think the biggest "mistake" you may have made was staying put, especially with two of you I would have spaced out with shooter 30-40 yards ahead and cut distance.

Thanks, I'll look up Joel's stuff! When I cow called, I usually tried to mimic a lost calf call sequence.
I heard so many chuckles with & without bugles last week that I was adding the chuckle after my own bugle atleast 50% of the time. But I don't believe that the pond Bull had chuckled.
Sounds like you are close to getting that shot opportunity, ur luck is bound to change! Wish I had more time in the woods this year.

 

[wolfpup]

Short answer... yes you didn't do the right thing at the right time or it would be a double for you and your brother. Honestly don't think there is any way to know what would have fired those bulls up unless you were there and did it right. Each year I learn something new of when and why each call worked or didn't. If your hearing chuckles they are probably happy right where they are at and not going to fire them up. If you can locate them, get closer watching the wind. I usually get busted by cows coming more than bulls. Can't really come up with the right answers myself to get it done consistently. I can consistently find elk and get them close, but can't get the finishing number. So my answer is call less and just sneak in on them.

 

[COEngineer]

The high country ended up getting a little busy with 4 wheelers on closed roads

If you're not aware, you can get a reward for reporting illegal moto use: http://backcountryhunters.org/get-involved/chapters/new-mexico/illegal-motorized-use-reward-program

 

[Tmbrgost]

In my experience 200 yards is too far to antagonize a bull into coming in. I have taken several bulls within this same scenario by cutting the distance to 75 or less. On 2 seperate hunts that resulted in both bulls down, I ran (not quiet, breaking a few branches and kicking a couple logs to sound like hooves) towards the bull while cow calling a few times until I felt like I would be seen. I then stopped and let out the nastiest, longest bugle/chuckle I could with a small seductive cow call after. Both bulls came in silent but fast! One to 20 yards and the other to 30.

Key note: The wind has to be in your face! No swirling. Solid wind current towards you.

 

[cohunter14]

What dates were you in the woods? A lot can depend on that. I agree with Tmbrgost though, you do need to be inside of 200 yards to really challenge a bull.

 

[dwlandman]

I'm definitely an impatient elk hunter, so telling me to charge in... or sneak.. to within 200yds is exactly what my ego needs to hear. lmao
it was the 3rd week of sept. @cohunter14

 

[cohunter14]

With it being the 3rd week, the bulls not coming into bugles could be because they are smaller bulls that have gotten beat up over the last few weeks and are timid, or it could also be that the bull wasn't going to leave his herd to go chase you down because you weren't close enough. Either one would make sense.

 

[SaskHunter]

I've learned to be more and less aggressive when hunting elk. More aggressive in terms of closing the distance with a bugling elk, and less so when calling. It's worked out very well this year where I was in elk every day within bow range.

I used to call too much and keep them out of range. I still call, but I definitely use the wind and try to get right in their face. Much like moose hunting, making noise isn't really an issue when you're pretending to be another bull looking to scrap.