CWD in CO and WY

[JM77]

Perhaps BuzzH or JM77 could provide some anecdotal evidence they have seen to the effects of CWD in WY on our ungulate herds. Personally, I haven't observed a massive notable decline in the populations of elk and deer due to the disease. Again, my opinion here, but I have seen bigger drops in the population numbers of elk due to wolves, bad winters and drought more than anything compared to the effects of CWD.

I'm sure I have stated before that our local elk herd, in central Wyoming, is over objective and has been testing positive at a 3-6% rate for over ten years. These elk winter heavily in the same areas and in rather large, dense herds. Unless something changes, it appears elk weather this storm of CWD.

The mule deer positive rate around here hovers around 27% and without a doubt herd numbers are down in our general area, this verified by a recent and intense helicopter survey. While I don't see the deer like back in the '90s, the herd seems to have stabilized at lower than desired numbers.

It's foolish, as far as I'm concerned, for anyone to criticize Wyoming's handling of the CWD dilemma. At this point, IMO, any biologist who thinks their plan is better or more proactive, is just tackling this with their opinion. There is no doubt in my mind ,that without a breakthrough, Mother Nature is going to handle this one on her own, no matter what kind of messes are made by wildlife managers.

 

[BuzzH]

I cant add a lot to Jeff's post...his numbers are the same thing that I'm told here by the local biologists. I think if there is increased testing that the rates may possibly bump up a little bit.

But, again like Jeff said, the central Wyoming elk herds are increasing even with a lot of hunting opportunity. Just looking at my notes from the recent GF open house in Laramie the bull to cow ratio in unit 7 was 51/100 with a calf/cow ratio of 42/100. The herd has a population objective of 5,000 elk and this year 9,000 were observed with a population estimate of 11,100. From what I understand the observed count was pretty thorough and likely very close to actual numbers.

I cant speak to how this herd was doing much past 15 years ago, but its been very productive the whole time I've lived in Laramie.

I don't know if there is a reason why deer have higher percentages of CWD than elk, but I would think that if herd densities, close contact, and higher populations increased the spread of CWD, we would be seeing higher than 3-6% rates in elk. Deer are much more spread out and the population is much lower and deer don't herd up nearly like elk in this part of Wyoming...yet the occurrence rates are quite high at 27%.

This is one disease that it seems like the more I try to understand it, the more unsure I am of anything to do with it. Let alone drawing any conclusions on how best to manage for it, just a tough issue.

 

[88man]

Thank god we are all entitled to an opinion in this country and we have the freedom to read research papers and documents on CWD. Its just so scary to me as this disease has been around for over 50 years and the research shows it is spreading geographically even outside of North America. From my perspective I don't understand why a government agency has not set up mandatory soil testing on game farms. Even from the basic elementary to the complex understanding of the disease triangle there are to many missing pieces at this time to have a definite management plan that leads to CWD FREE animals in the future where the disease currently exists. More dollars need to be spent on the scientific research. I think we are doing an ok job on basic quarantine management plans in place currently except that the farm raised industry needs soil testing and some stronger regulations. What causes the protein/prion to misfold?

 

[madtom]

I don't know if there is a reason why deer have higher percentages of CWD than elk

Do you know what the prevalence is in bulls vs cows? One big difference I see is we shoot almost exclusively mule deer bucks, but far more cow elk than bulls (within the Laramie Peak herd units at least). If CWD is truly more prevalent in males, this may partly explain why overall herd prevalence looks higher in deer than elk. With that said, I'd guess that WGFD folks have the breakdown by sex for each species.

 

[BuzzH]

Do you know what the prevalence is in bulls vs cows? One big difference I see is we shoot almost exclusively mule deer bucks, but far more cow elk than bulls (within the Laramie Peak herd units at least). If CWD is truly more prevalent in males, this may partly explain why overall herd prevalence looks higher in deer than elk. With that said, I'd guess that WGFD folks have the breakdown by sex for each species.

Good question I'm sure the GF would have those numbers. I know that I've heard that bucks are more likely to have it than does. Cant recall hearing the same about elk, so I don't know.

That said, 51 bulls per 100 cows post harvest in CWD ground zero in Wyoming doesn't lead me to believe that its much more of a problem in bulls than cows.

 

[Hunting Wife]

Personally, I haven't observed a massive notable decline in the populations of elk and deer due to the disease. Again, my opinion here, but I have seen bigger drops in the population numbers of elk due to wolves, bad winters and drought more than anything compared to the effects of CWD.

This touches on something that I think gets lost in the discussion or that I fail to communicate well. It’s not that the research says CWD is going to wipe out populations per se ...no one knows. Declines are being documented, so that’s obviously not good news. Modeling makes it look like it has the potential to extirpate some populations, so that’s not good either. Maybe for a strong elk population like Buzz and JM77 mention, it won’t be so bad. But what does it mean for populations that are struggling (mule deer in particular come to my mind, though on a more local level it could be any struggling cervid herd). I can’t help but think that if it has the capacity to steer some populations in a downward trend, it would likely have the capacity to prevent populations that are already surviving on the edge or experience some more acute event (bad winter, drought, EHD outbreak, something else) from bouncing back. For me, it’s not necessarily that CWD WILL, singlehandedly, wipe things out but it seems pretty possible that it could be the thing that removes populations’ ability to recover from other challenges. More of a final nail in the coffin, so to speak. So after each bad winter, or dry summer, or EHD year the population dwindles a little more and just never can make up the lost ground. By my logic, this seems to be a much more likely scenario for CWD’s true impacts down the road but who knows. I have no supporting data. Just food for thought.

 

[88man]

How about increased kills from Lions and Coyotes on CWD infected deer? Even possible increased winter loss on infected animals???

 

[BuzzH]

How about increased kills from Lions and Coyotes on CWD infected deer? Even possible increased winter loss on infected animals???

I think predation could possibly slow the spread. If we are to believe that predators kill the weak and sick, they probably pick off CWD positive animals pretty easily.

Cant really say much to the winter kill since, IMO, I would think the timing of the late stages of CWD can happen any time, not just in the winter/early spring. Surely an animal with later stages of CWD entering winter would likely struggle big-time to make it through.

 

[madtom]

That said, 51 bulls per 100 cows post harvest in CWD ground zero in Wyoming doesn't lead me to believe that its much more of a problem in bulls than cows.

That could be, but I think that high bull ratio is also largely resulting from the limited quota season structure in elk area 7 and 19. There are many CWD-positive mule deer areas that have limited quota seasons and similarly high buck:doe ratios. I would expect the age structure of those areas to be more affected by CWD than the simple male:female ratio.

 

[ImBillT]

I think that the only reason this disease has garnered attention, is that it got into the captive herds and they gave it a name. There have always been cases of deer dying and no one cared, until suddenly it had a name and some attention. I believe that it is much to do about nothing. Let nature take its course. They have not come up with an effective way to address it, except to try to slaughter everything and they have not proven that to be effective either. Wisconsin panicked and killed everything in sight and I doubt that it made any difference. If you are concerned with the health of an animal, don't harvest it. If you kill one, don't eat the brains, or spine and there will be no problem.

If you don't go hunting, because you are scared of cwd, then that is your decision. I have hunted in cwd areas for years. Game and Parks here finds one once-in-a-while, when they check for it during center-fire deer season. No big deal and I doubt that concentrations of animals really changes the equation.

Just my opinion.

There’s a lot of evidence to suggest that the disease didn’t exist prior to the 1960’s.

The brain and spine are definitely the highest risk tissues, but scrapie and CWD seem to be infective from animal to animal at lower exposure levels than BSE. Furthermore, if you have your game processed commercially, the processor most likely sawed the animal in half through the spine, smearing spinal fluid and tissue all over your backstraps. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[ImBillT]

I think predation could possibly slow the spread. If we are to believe that predators kill the weak and sick, they probably pick off CWD positive animals pretty easily.

Cant really say much to the winter kill since, IMO, I would think the timing of the late stages of CWD can happen any time, not just in the winter/early spring. Surely an animal with later stages of CWD entering winter would likely struggle big-time to make it through.

I thought the predator angle might be a good one first, but it seems that a deer is contagious for 18-24 months before it becomes symptomatic, and once it’s symptomatic it only lives a few more months. With that in mind, I find it highly unlikely that predation would have a significant impact on CWD spread beyond the reduction in population. There are other ways to reduce population.

 

[ImBillT]

I have been reading about CWD for 30 yrs & dealing with it.
Even in CA where it has never been detected,there were protocols for hunters & regulations put on farmers of game. The game animals still got out of their enclosures....
I just got the most recent report & info on distribution. Neighbor sent it to me & I tried to load here but failed. USGS on expanding range of CWD.
I did know it had supposedly been found in units 34 & 36 & they had protocols in place.
Now it seems the map marks the units near El Paso & up in Socorro County ,next to Catron & 34 & 36 area is not on map. As far as I know only place detected last few years was 34&36.
So either NMG&F is full of it & knows less than I thought or no one knows where it has spread now.
The ignoring it or "it makes no nevermind" part does worry me....those people worry me.

I can’t check the exact spots your mentioning right now, but I do know that the most maps show the distribution by county, but NMGF shows it by unit. The county map, and unit map in NM that I looked at last year obviously differed, but overlapped. I assume both maps were correct and that you could actually narrow down the area where it had been detected by looking at the overlap.

 

[BuzzH]

There’s a lot of evidence to suggest that the disease didn’t exist prior to the 1960’s.

The brain and spine are definitely the highest risk tissues, but scrapie and CWD seem to be infective from animal to animal at lower exposure levels than BSE. Furthermore, if you have your game processed commercially, the processor most likely sawed the animal in half through the spine, smearing spinal fluid and tissue all over your backstraps. Just something to keep in mind.

There is some pretty solid evidence that CWD may have been around since the early 1950's in this part of Wyoming according to some of the Bio's I've talked with.

 

[ImBillT]

There is some pretty solid evidence that CWD may have been around since the early 1950's in this part of Wyoming according to some of the Bio's I've talked with.

You’re better informed on it than I, but there seems to be quite a bit of reason to believe that it hasn’t been on the landscape for centuries as some folks suggest.

 

[walking buffalo]

Alberta thought they were doing the "right thing" by gunning down any and every Mule Deer and maybe even whitetails on their Eastern boarder next to Saskatchewan. Wiping out an entire population of not only quality deer but a huge herd that will most likely never recover. And guess what........how ever many years later...... they still have CWD. Go figure right?

This comment shows that you do not know what happened in Alberta.

The initial cull certainly never wiped out an entire population, not even close. Maybe a 20% reduction of the herd....
This cull was ended prematurely due to public outcry, thus it never had a chance to be proven as a viable technique to eliminate the disease.
If the cull was allowed to continue it certainly may have eliminated CWD from this population, for a while, as Saskatchewan, the source of the diseased animals entering Alberta, also discontinued the CWD cull due to public pressure.

The source of CWD in Northern Montana is from Saskatchewan. You can thank them for their CWD control plan, do nothing....

In subsequent years, Alberta CWD areas with high harvest rates did keep CWD infections rates very low, 1-2%.
During this time, populations levels were reduced, but increased vitality to the herd increased reproduction rates, and the herd thrived.

It was only when high harvest rates were reduced did CWD infection rates increase, and alarmingly so.
Now Alberta is facing areas with 50% Mule deer buck infection rates! Provincial average infection rates in CWD zones are in double digits.

The decision to NOT aggressively attack CWD with High harvest rates is directly responsible for the horrendous situation we are now in.
Go figure?

 

[BuzzH]

Just heard a piece on NPR yesterday about CWD in Norway, Sweden, and Finland...where do you suppose those cases came from?

Interesting to note that the types of CWD are different between the cases in Norway and Finland.

CWD in Finland is different from the Nordfjella CWD type

The Finnish Food Safety Authority (Evira) has detected Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in a 15-year-old moose in Kuhmo in eastern Finland, near the Russian border. This is the first detection of CWD in Finland and the first case within the EU. Further analysis made by the EU Reference Laboratory...

www.vetinst.no

I don't know what to think, but I don't believe there is conclusive evidence on much of anything, in particular that herd reductions work to stop the spread or occurrence rates. I'm also starting to wonder if cwd really did come from the research facility in Colorado, or if its manifesting itself due to higher deer populations all across North America due to conservation efforts?

I also don't think its unreasonable to believe that CWD hasn't been around for quite a while...who tested for it in the 50's, 60's, etc? I don't think many agencies did. I also wonder if there is any correlation between the high mule deer populations in the 50's-70's and the numbers being much lower now in regard to cwd?

Lots of unanswered questions and I haven't seen enough concrete evidence to make much of an informed decision about how we handle it. The more I read the more confusing it all becomes and the more questions there seems to be than answers.

 

[walking buffalo]

Just heard a piece on NPR yesterday about CWD in Norway, Sweden, and Finland...where do you suppose those cases came from?

Interesting to note that the types of CWD are different between the cases in Norway and Finland.

CWD in Finland is different from the Nordfjella CWD type

The Finnish Food Safety Authority (Evira) has detected Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) in a 15-year-old moose in Kuhmo in eastern Finland, near the Russian border. This is the first detection of CWD in Finland and the first case within the EU. Further analysis made by the EU Reference Laboratory...

www.vetinst.no

I don't know what to think, but I don't believe there is conclusive evidence on much of anything, in particular that herd reductions work to stop the spread or occurrence rates. I'm also starting to wonder if cwd really did come from the research facility in Colorado, or if its manifesting itself due to higher deer populations all across North America due to conservation efforts?

I also don't think its unreasonable to believe that CWD hasn't been around for quite a while...who tested for it in the 50's, 60's, etc? I don't think many agencies did. I also wonder if there is any correlation between the high mule deer populations in the 50's-70's and the numbers being much lower now in regard to cwd?

Lots of unanswered questions and I haven't seen enough concrete evidence to make much of an informed decision about how we handle it. The more I read the more confusing it all becomes and the more questions there seems to be than answers.

While just conjecture, I suspect that their are various strains of CWD indigenous to multiple areas.
Perhaps Colorado was one of these areas.
Consider Ebola. This disease appears in a few isolated areas, usually only discovered in the population after surface disturbance from logging/mining.
Are we literally digging this disease up, subsequently infecting wildlife and people?

Regardless of potential indigenous sources of CWD, the decisions to allow the transportation and farming of LIVE wildlife is without any doubt the main reason why CWD is now being found in so many areas where it has not been found after decades of testing.

If Game Farming and the Internation transportation of Live Wildlife was not allowed, Saskatchewan, Alberta and Northern Montana would most likely still be CWD free.

 

[EYJONAS!]

 

[Pelican]

Montana is doing the right thing with CWD. CWD is over running CO and WY and the way to combat it was to keep management the same or we will end up like CO and WY.
My question for you CO and WY guy is just how bad is CWD in your states?

I wouldn’t characterize CO as being overrun with CWD. CWD has been in CO for 50 years and there are still a lot of game units where CWD has yet to be detected despite extensive testing. CPW is trying to keep prevalence in deer herds below 5% and think that level will allow herds to persist. For some unknown reason, CWD prevalence increases in some areas in CO, but remains low in others. Nobody wants to see reductions in game populations for the purpose of reducing CWD prevalence, but what the hell else do you do? Ignoring the problem seems irresponsible and dooms herds with skyrocketing prevalence rates to an uncertain future. Overall, the impacts from CWD in CO have been less severe than what some predicted 15 years ago. Unfortunately, CWD is still expanding here so we have yet to realize the full impact on our big game.

 

[3855WIN]

CWD has also shown up in camels in North Africa.