CPW seeks public feedback on big game hunting license distribution

[AvidIndoorsman]

i suspect there are enough people who pay close to zero attention while doing things like registering for their car that this will definitely be a gain. plus there are people like me who have never bought an annual parks pass in their life that will just go ahead and be buying one now. could maybe gain a few hundred thousand additional parks pass buyers.

soon cpw will manage to a get a bill pushed through that adds on an an OTC Bull and Bear C license to your car registration for 50 bucks that you may opt out of if you so wish.

Starting 2022 unlimited Bear D tags… only good in the new Dec-Feb season.

 

[marksjeep]

i suspect there are enough people who pay close to zero attention while doing things like registering for their car that this will definitely be a gain. plus there are people like me who have never bought an annual parks pass in their life that will just go ahead and be buying one now. could maybe gain a few hundred thousand additional parks pass buyers.

soon cpw will manage to a get a bill pushed through that adds on an an OTC Bull and Bear C license to your car registration for 50 bucks that you may opt out of if you so wish.

I read the CPW news releases and local news pretty regularly, but this flew right under the radar.

 

[TOGIE]

I read the CPW news releases and local news pretty regularly, but this flew right under the radar.

probably exactly how they wanted it to fly

 

[marksjeep]

No doubt.

 

[rideold]

How about allocate land owner tags by calculating the percent of land they own in the unit! If they own a ton then sure, they should get a ton of tags. But if they own 1% of the land.....

 

[Oak]

The landowner ship sailed in 2013 with Senate Bill 188. The allocation is set in statute, so best to focus on things you might be able affect during this process.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

How about allocate land owner tags by calculating the percent of land they own in the unit! If they own a ton then sure, they should get a ton of tags. But if they own 1% of the land.....

How many pronghorn live on Crestone Peak?

Landowner tags require 1. It’s a draw unit, so if a unit is OTC for elk you can't get a first or 4th season voucher 2. You own habitat that holds animals 3. Allocation is based on how much land you own, it has to be over a set number of acres 4. You get a voucher not a tag, so a NR still pays the NR price and it’s only good for a specific season

Further there is still a draw process and you don’t necessarily get a pile of tags every year. A 4th season buck tag still might take 8 years to draw in a 12pt res unit.

It's basically a separate but identical draw process to the regular tag system, just a separate pool of licenses.

I’m not saying there aren’t issues and abuses, or that I like the system I get arguments for it and would be fine if I never got a voucher again… but I’ve actually helped fill out a landowner permit application and I feel like a lot of people don’t really have a good grasp of how it all works.

 

[rideold]

Interesting. Thanks for the detail. I did not know that was how it worked.

 

[thusby]

I’m gonna make my list;

1. Draws 50% pref points, 50% random.
2. NR quota 20% all available tags, not unit specific.
3. Elk by draw only.
4. Eliminate primitive weapon seasons.

Done!

 

[cedahm]

I’m gonna make my list;

1. Draws 50% pref points, 50% random.
2. NR quota 20% all available tags, not unit specific.
3. Elk by draw only.
4. Eliminate primitive weapon seasons.

Done!

Curious on your thinking behind #4. I’ve honestly never seen that opinion before.

I don’t think there is any way it would happen, but if archery or ML seasons were eliminated, total tag numbers (tags per elk in Will’s parlance) would be cut drastically, and thus, draw odds go way down, prices rise drastically (more demand and less supply)

 

[TOGIE]

Curious on your thinking behind #4. I’ve honestly never seen that opinion before.

I don’t think there is any way it would happen, but if archery or ML seasons were eliminated, total tag numbers (tags per elk in Will’s parlance) would be cut drastically, and thus, draw odds go way down, prices rise drastically (more demand and less supply)

i only agree with his #4 in the sense that i like wyoming's structure in that regard.

you get a rifle elk tag? sweet, that's your elk tag, if you want you can archery hunt on that tag in september. fill your tag with a bow? cool done with that elk tag.

i would never want to do away with the muzzleloader season though.

unrelated.... i just freaking want a rifle mule deer season without a bunch of gawddamn elk hunters tromping through the woods. 3rd season should be for the deer hunters.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

Curious on your thinking behind #4. I’ve honestly never seen that opinion before.

I don’t think there is any way it would happen, but if archery or ML seasons were eliminated, total tag numbers (tags per elk in Will’s parlance) would be cut drastically, and thus, draw odds go way down, prices rise drastically (more demand and less supply)

I don't agree with removing archery season... but something to chew on:

Hunters complain about elk and deer on private, it was one of the arguments for changing the dates and widening the gaps in the seasons.

In CO the alpine tends to be public, wintering habitat private.

Elk will head to cover when pressured regardless of weather.

2005
195,089 - Rifle Elk tags
35,628 - Archery Elk tags

2020
148,615 -Rifle Elk tags
53,426 -Archery Elk tags

Rifle is composed of 4 seasons + late season private land only. Archery is an entire month.

I don't think it's unrealistic that weekends with the most hunters in the field are during archery season. It's also Sept so there are tons of recreational users + bear seasons, muzzy, etc.

Seems like there is at decent argument to be made that all that pressure is sending elk to private early in the fall and they are just staying there.

This fits with my experience on private land in CO... 2012 did see an elk till 4th season, last year saw elk second week of archery season.

Also for comparison... WY sold 73,961 total elk licenses last year.

 

[ccc23454]

My suggestion was a 2 step process to fix point system:

 

[cedahm]

i only agree with his #4 in the sense that i like wyoming's structure in that regard.

you get a rifle elk tag? sweet, that's your elk tag, if you want you can archery hunt on that tag in september. fill your tag with a bow? cool done with that elk tag.

I love their structure also, but:

WY sold 73,961 total elk licenses last year.

Scale is so different that the WY model would never work here. ~3X the tagholders, ~2X+ the amount of Elk, and ~10X the population that is also out there recreating in early fall. All of that occurring in something like 1/2 to 2/3 of the elk habitat that WY has.

I think you'll see changes to CO archery elk soon enough, but they're more likely to be splitting seasons into shorter chunks a la NM/AZ, not expanding /combining them.

My suggestion was a 2 step process to fix point system:

This one wins in the Preference Point discussion...just extremely unlikely. I'd love to see a statewide poll result for Deer/Elk/Antelope/Turkey for: Random, Status quo (pure Preference), or MSG style weighted bonus. I bet Random would be 2nd by a wide margin to 'status quo' (and MSG would be violently in 3rd place).

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

I love their structure also, but:


Scale is so different that the WY model would never work here. ~3X the tagholders, ~2X+ the amount of Elk, and ~10X the population that is also out there recreating in early fall. All of that occurring in something like 1/2 to 2/3 of the elk habitat that WY has.

I think you'll see changes to CO archery elk soon enough, but they're more likely to be splitting seasons into shorter chunks a la NM/AZ, not expanding /combining them.

Totally agree, kinda why I posted the WY data, folks tend to reference that system… but it’s just not apples to apples.

I do think overcrowding in the early season needs to be addressed.

Split season, break up the otc tags to DAUs or units, etc. Archery has gotten wildly popular, and CPW hasn’t addressed that fact.

Personally I like the MSG system the best. Not necessarily the bonus aspect but the weighted preference, ie there are preference points but at a certain point it goes lottery. Is your statement that you think on the whole it’s unpopular?

 

[cedahm]

Personally I like the MSG system the best. Not necessarily the bonus aspect but the weighted preference, ie there are preference points but at a certain point it goes lottery. Is your statement that you think on the whole it’s unpopular?

yes, I meant ‘on the whole’. Its pretty clear from numerous discussions that most folks don’t (or - in many cases - just “won’t“) understand the weighted preference system today.

If we were to wean from pure preference I think it’s the best option. The structure already exists in the draw process and systems, also. Would probably need to eliminate the current 3 year ‘apprenticeship’ period for Deer/Elk/Pronghorn/Bear/Turkey.

 

[AvidIndoorsman]

yes, I meant ‘on the whole’. Its pretty clear from numerous discussions that most folks don’t (or - in many cases - just “won’t“) understand the weighted preference system today.

If we were to wean from pure preference I think it’s the best option. The structure already exists in the draw process and systems, also. Would probably need to eliminate the current 3 year ‘apprenticeship’ period for Deer/Elk/Pronghorn/Bear/Turkey.

Would you though, I mean you could still draw with 1 or 2 pts if that’s where ‘market demand’ was for those units.

 

[cedahm]

Would you though, I mean you could still draw with 1 or 2 pts if that’s where ‘market demand’ was for those units.

I suppose you’re right, it doesn’t matter (eg - NR Cow moose tags on occasion).

 

[TOGIE]

I love their structure also, but:

Scale is so different that the WY model would never work here. ~3X the tagholders, ~2X+ the amount of Elk, and ~10X the population that is also out there recreating in early fall. All of that occurring in something like 1/2 to 2/3 of the elk habitat that WY has.

i mean, you're absolutley right far from apples to apples. which is why we can't just have the wyoming syste. but i don't think that's a true reason why tweaks can't be made that may adopt some wyoming ideas.

i kinda think you laid out the argument for making such tweaks. like: less habitat/ground to hunt on, 3x the tags, and only 2x the elk.

we don't need (tabor and financial constraints notwithstanding) to have 3x the tag holders for only 2x the elk AND with less area to hunt them on - to me that's arithmetic for "A+B+C = absurd shitshow" which is exactly what a lot of units in september and october look like.

i just hate every solution cpw comes up because they all rely on maintaining status quo. pretty soon colorado will have 3 archery seasons and then a 5th or hell even 6th rifle season after shortening the rest of the rifle seasons even more. it's a clown show out here. all in the name of preserving the amount of tagholders, if not increasing them, to not dick with the budget while hoping we all cheer it on in the name of less crowding. meanwhile nothing really got better in terms of what we want: a better hunting experience.

wyoming sells you the opportunity to harvest an elk; colorado sells you the opportunity to hunt. those are wildly different in my book. and while the latter is not entirely bad and many ways really awesome, i think we've swung too far to that one side of the opportunity spectrum and i'd jsut really like us to dial it back a bit. splitting seasons, adding seasons, shortening seasons, etc, is not the way to move that needle IMO. at least it's not what i want if i'm gonna keep living here.

 

[Buffs35]

My wish list:

A tags take all points, unless obtained via leftovers
Residents get first crack at leftover/turned in tags.
Reduce/eliminate ability to turn in tags
Shorten season lengths: For example, split September into 3 separate seasons. 1st week of September 1st archery. 4 days in middle of the month, Friday to Monday, muzzy season. Last full week of September 2nd archery. Reduce all other season dates by 25%.
OTC with caps
Can't obtain a PP if you have an A tag/OTC tag, must chose one or the other. Effectively, PP are obtained after hunting season, and you can only apply for an additional PP if you haven't used an A tag or purchased an OTC tag.