Coyote killing contest

[ELKCHSR]

Do you agree with groups that sue to prevent better managed grazing on public lands even considering that if they 'win' management will stay the same as before the law suit? That exact situation has had me confounded for the past couple of years. I will say, things are getting better!

I'm not saying this is the case here Tyler, but there are zelots on both sides of the fence who for all the good they perport, do more harm...

But all the law suits seem to help fill the lawyers pockets, and they don't seem to care who's side their on

I wonder if there isn't a third culprit your all missing that is worse than the supposed fixes that never or only slightly ever get fixed....

Hmmm....

 

[1_pointer]

YEs, as hunters, we have a moral obligation to not only agree, but to SUPPORT and FUND these groups to prevent the further degradation of hunting opportunities.

Thanks for making my point! By their actions management on the ground often remains the same as it has for the past ump-teen years. Keeping management the same will do little to no good to prevent degradation of hunting opportunities. I am suprised that you are not supportive of Federal Agencies taking actions to better the health of the land.

 

[shoots-straight]

[QUOTESS

Have you actually been to Baker? While I understand how things appear is important I just don't get all the holier then though thing. Especially coming from west of the divide. If you don't like this coyote contest then don't participate. Most of the people in Montana who are complaining are the "fair" chase crowd that arrived here from a Coastal state, built their McMansion on prime winter elk habitat and have never traveled east of Bonner. I wish we could divide this state in half along a line running from about 1 mile East of Billings up through Havre. You guys could then have your own little State of Confusion over there. SHEESH][/QUOTE]

Nemont,

To answer some of your paragraph, I'm a 5th generation Bitterrooter, yes been to that place Baker, how hunting appears is very important especially if we want to continue to hunt through this 21 st century.
Your By God not ova here (spit chew on the ground tough guy talk), won't help anything. Nor doe's it impress me. I've hunted coyotes all my hunting life,trapped a few too,most all you sheep loveing easterners(spit chew on the ground wipe my face with my sleeve), seem to think the range belongs to you and your statement backs me up. I quit hunting over there because the areas that were public (BLM,State, ect.) that had grazed sheep, had not one blade of grass left. You had to hunt on private land where by weird comparison had beautifull grassy hills with abundant wildlife,(including lots of coyotes). Seems the Public lands were sacraficed for the good of a few. Coyote competition hunts bring out the worst in hunting, and if you don't get it then that's your problem, Seems alot of us don't like the light it sheds on hunting.

It shouldn't matter what side of the divide your on, when it comes to the sport we all love, what brings us to this web site to visit with others that share our passion, we should consider our actions very carefully. I don't care where your from, opinions and perceptions due matter, considering the 80 per cent that that vote and don't hunt control the politics of our sport.

 

[Nemont]

Hey dumb #*^@#*, you show me ONE post where I have said public lands are mine. I doubt seriously if you have ever read one of my posts. In addition I doubt you have seen or know anyone that works and owns a ranch East of Reserve Street. That whole diatribe shows how ignorant and condescending people in Western Montana are. $*)Q!#@$ Puke

WTF does coyote hunting in Baker have to do with grazing. It was not mentioned in the article nor is it one of the issues even brought up. Your own bias shows through just as others hatred of grazers always comes out in every thread regardless of topic. If you had one $*)Q!#@$ clue about what good grazing even means or even looks like on the ground I would be more impressed. I am happy you don't come over on this side of the state anymore since the hunting is so bad. Now you need to convince the other 10 or 15 thousands that migrate over here from West of the divide that the hunting sucks.


In addition I have never chewed Copenhagen, and your caricature of Eastern Montanans is exactly the kind of BS the screams for us becoming two different states, We already are. Native born Eastern Montanan's still out number transplants on this side of the state, can you say the same about the Bitterroot? If hunting is to survive in the State I would place my money on this side of the state where there are more hunters per capita then anywhere else in the nation. If we lose hunting over a coyote killing contest on an animal classed vermin by the MT FWP then there is little to no hope continuing hunting as we know it anyway. If you have been to Baker as you claim you would know that there isn't alot of going on there other then oil development.

Just because you and other hate grazing doesn't make it a valid arguement in every other debate. There are still hundreds of coyotes on all types of lands around the family's ranch, doesn't appear to faze the coyotes when the cross from deeded to indian land to state land to BLM land around here. Everyone who lumps all grazers into the "Welfare" rancher category are as stupid as everyone who considers all hunters slobs. But I can't cure you from being stupid. Enjoy the continued boom in the Bitterroot, I am going to go shoot some coyotes.

Nemont

 

[Ithaca 37]

WTF does coyote hunting in Baker have to do with grazing. It was not mentioned in the article nor is it one of the issues even brought up.

Nemont, Coyote hunting is better in habitat that has not been overgrazed. See, we can turn just about any hunting topic into overgrazing's effect on wildlife.

In all honesty, Nemont, I really appreciate your posts and i understand where you're coming from. I think one of the problems we deal with is the public land grazing attitudes in different parts of the country. I suspect I'd be impressed by the way your family grazes on public land---probably with how others in your area graze, too. I suspect you'd be appalled at what you'd see in SW Idaho, Nevada and parts of Oregon. I think the difference is annual moisture. This land I see when I'm hunting is very marginal grazing land and has traditionally been ranched by gummint hating renegades who have their backs to the wall every year just trying to survive. Kinda like these cattlemen in the quote from DeVoto:

“The cattlemen came from Elsewhere into the empty West. They were always arrogant and always deluded. ... They thought of themselves as Westerners and they did fine in the West, but they were enemies of everyone else who lived there. They kept sheepmen, their natural and eventual allies, out of the West wherever and as long as they could, slaughtering herds and frequently herdsmen. They did their utmost to keep the nester -- the farmer, the actual settler, the man who could create local and permanent wealth -- out of the West and to terrorize or bankrupt him where he could not be kept out. And the big cattlemen squeezed out the little ones wherever possible, grabbing the water rights, foreclosing small holdings, frequently hiring gunmen to murder them.” (DeVoto 1955)

MT miller, Thanks for the idea about taking some photos of overgrazed land. I don't have a digital camera and now that we've had snow that's flattened alot of grass the contrast from one side of a fence to the other doesn't seem as dramatic. I was thinking about possible photos while hunting yesterday. I think I'll start trying to figure out how to get some good pictures, though. Might take until next Fall, but I'll work on it.

In the meantime, here's some interesting pictures and info about what I see almost every day I go bird hunting: http://www.westernwatersheds.org/facts_photos/LEPA/LEPA.html

Here's more: http://www.westernwatersheds.org/Spruce Mountain/Sprucemtn.htm

 

[280]

neumont is off his meds AGAIN!

 

[Nemont]

neumont is off his meds AGAIN!

good one.

 

[shoots-straight]

Hey dumb #*^@#*, you show me ONE post where I have said public lands are mine.

Moron didn't you write:

I wish we could divide this state in half along a line running from about 1 mile East of Billings up through Havre. You guys could then have your own little State of Confusion over there. SH

Hey did I not read this right? Or maybe it wasn't what you meant.

WTF does coyote hunting in Baker have to do with grazing. It was not mentioned in the article nor is it one of the issues even brought up. Your own bias shows through just as others hatred of grazers always comes out in every thread regardless of topic.

Dumb arse, it's because of the justification of the hunt that grazing is brought into the picture,

Coyotes caused an estimated $47 million in damage to the cattle industry in 2005, according to the USDA. Sheep losses topped $10 million in 2004.

I don't know why God put them on this Earth," said Jerrid Geving, a hunter who organizes the Baker event. "If He put them on this world to give us sport for hunting, maybe. But I'll tell you what, they do a lot of damage to livestock."

The correlation to grazing was evident in the begining of the post. I didn't say it they did. So what about the damage sheep and cattle have done to the public range?

In addition I have never chewed Copenhagen, and your caricature of Eastern Montanans is exactly the kind of BS the screams for us becoming two different states, We already are.

You wrote earilier during blackouts

[

Most of the people in Montana who are complaining are the "fair" chase crowd that arrived here from a Coastal state, built their McMansion on prime winter elk habitat and have never traveled east of Bonner.

No hairy legged tofu eaters in Baker

You didn't steriotype Western Montana people at all. Piss breath quit throwing shit around if you don't like getting some back in your face.

Some of the worst range conditions I saw were over close to Baker, from the air you could make out the sections of State and Blm grazed to nothing but a dirt color. The private lands however where beautifull grass covered with lots of wildlife.

Just because you and other hate grazing doesn't make it a valid arguement in every other debate.

Again wrong, show me one time I threw out the fact I hated grazing? I hate the lands we all share to be missused by grazing, Oil, timber dev. ect. I don't
oppose any of these types of land use. Montana has long been abused.

I've wasted enough time on you.

 

[cjcj]

I shoot every Freaking Yote that I see! and I feel damn good about it.hump

They are vermin, like rats in my opinion... Nemonts is correct... Shooting them has very little impact... in some antelope units,7,9,10,Anderson Mesa,etc... Az game and fish used to whack them from a chopper during the spring... It might have given fawns a better chance for survival in some of these units... but lack of water,food,etc. and new subdivisions are detrimental to Antelope in AZ..there are exceptions.[Prescott/Chino]

But those Freaking Yotes can survive just about anywhere... they are all over in Phx/.Goodyear/Scottdale etc,etc.

The only thing they can`t survive is a BULLET! Kill as many as you can.hump

they won`t be "endangered" any time soon

 

[Bambistew]

So here's my question, if you have the brains and cojones to answer it. Do you really believe the number of mule deer, antelope, sage grouse, quail, chukars and Huns on public lands that are in poor condition due to overgrazing by welfare ranchers has not declined in the last thirty years?

BTW, I never called you stupid. That seems to be the ‘back peddle’ remark of the decade on this board. You can leave out the “why don’t you go to back to second grade” remark too. (we all know I didn't even make it through second grade, so going back woudn't help)

Chuckers and Huns??? Who gives a fugg about them... You're funny... you scoff, piss&moan and belittle anyone that even mentions introduction of species, but if its something that you benefit from (aka non-native birds) then it’s a ok.

If grazing was so terrible than how come mule deer numbers where at record levels when public land grazing was at its peak? There have been mountains of studies done on the crash of the population... There isn't any one answer to that dilemma (I know you'd like for it to be public lands ranching though). There are also tens of thousands of mule deer fanatics that would love to know what the real answer is so we can fix it.

Also... Where are the populations of antelope in trouble due to grazing? I've heard of many areas that are over objective as far as game numbers go. Many of those areas have public land grazing as part of their management practices.

Have you got any links to studies done on sage grouse that state that it’s solely because of grazing? Could it be due to the removal/burning/spraying of sage brush? I thought that the BLM and FS had to give the final OK on that??? Oh wait I forgot that I was stupid for bringing up the point that the FS and BLM should be held accountable for some of the degradation.

Face it dude, you hate all ranchers regardless of where they graze. Your animosity toward them and your bigoted remarks speak nothing different. I'd sure like for the ranchers that you hunt on to see your post regarding anything that involves public land grazing, or grazing in general. I’d be surprised if all the ranches that you mentioned that you hunted on were solely private land grazers. My guess is 99.99% of them would tell you take a hike next time you came calling.

I’m really surprised that you’ve come out publicly on this thread and said that all public lands ranching is not bad. This is a whole different ‘tune’ than you’re used too. Has you’re grinch heart ‘swelled’ just a little?

 

[Bambistew]

Quote:
If public lands ranching was so terrible woudn't we be seeing a drastic decline in the animals that are killed each year?

Another really stupid comment

Is it stupid because its true, or is it stupid because you don't agree with it?

 

[BuzzH]

Bambi,

How much public land that sees grazing pressure from ranchers is in good or excellent condition?

A majority of public lands are not in good condition.

I rest my case.

 

[1_pointer]

One can have a VERY healthy rangeland without it being in 'good' or 'excellent' condition...

 

[shoots-straight]

cjcj,

The thread's not about killing of coyotes, but rather having contests killing em. I kill as many as I can when fured up and worth anything. I believe they are a worthy animal to hunt, and I enjoy hunting them. They also do good in places where the real vermine populations get out of control. Over in the Big Hole Valley Ranchers during the boom of $100 coyotes in the 70's closed their lands to coyote hunting because not many were left and the mice there where everywhere. They can be cleaned out in places that are condusive to snowmobiles, trapping, and on-site shooting. That's what happened over there.

 

[Bambistew]

Buzz,

I’m not a range ‘expert’ so I’m not sure if what I see is in good condition or not, I’m assuming most on this board are the same. Like I said as long as the ranchers don’t hose it up I could care less if they graze it. I will say that I think the majority of riparian areas should be off limits to cows though on both private and public lands. Some of the allotments that I’ve seen in the last few years have been fenced along those areas however so maybe times are a changing? Pointer??? is that a new regulation?

The area where I hunt in CO (approx 6-7000? ac of BLM/FS) is grazed all summer long by about 3-400 head. The only place that I see any issues is along the creeks. The rest of the range looks fine to me, but I don’t know anything so take it for what its worth. All I know is all of the areas that I’ve hunted over the years that are grazed are not lacking animals anymore so than the areas that I hunt in non grazed or the wilderness. As a mater of fact I’m not sure I’ve ever hunted elk in a better area as far as shear numbers of elk and deer go than the area where my cabin is in CO. 90% of the unit is Public land and I'll bet 75% or more is grazed. I’ve seen quite a few sage grouse up there too.

If we fenced off the whole west from cows what would we get? How do we know??? Like I said why was the mule deer population at its peak the same time public land grazing was at its peak? Just a coincidence, or was it because of coyote culling?

Since we’re talking sage grouse… The area in MT that has been grazed by my family for nearly 100 years used to have a large number of sage grouse up until about ~15 years ago. Does it take 80 years or more for the cows to really hose up an area or what? Before the cows (about 60 years ago) they grazed sheep... where the sheep eating something diffrent that may have benifitted the birds? Once they were removed did those plants mature and take over since the cows don't eat them?

My uncle seems to think that the number dropped off about the same time bird hunting became en vogue. I pretty decent sized area adjacent to where they graze is not grazed anylonger either, and hasn't been for quite some time. Woudn't it make sence that the bird numbers would incease? I know it would depend on the habitat but its virtually identical range.

There used to be very few people that would ride those FS roads now it’s like a highway up there. IMO sage grouse are easily the dumbest of all the grouse, I know it woudln't be hard to wipe out a whole family unit if 2-4 guys were shooting. I could see how hunting/poaching could put a hurting on the population, especially in areas with lots of roads and plenty of people.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Bambi, Until you started posting in this topic I didn't realize how little you know about rangeland health. I'm not going to answer all your questions, it would take too long. You have access to the Internet, do your own research and come back when you know enough to answer your questions yourself.

BTW, You're the jerk who asked if I had the cojones

even though I doubt you have the cajones to answer

and I answered it. How about admitting you were wrong? I was amazed you'd make such a comment over such a simple question I'd never even think twice about answering.

The fact is, as you admit, you don't even know what to look for when you evaluate range health.

But Buzz is correct. What it all boils down to is: The majority of public land that is grazed is in poor condition. There's no way around that fact, and anyone with a brain ought to be able to figure out that's not good for wildlife. The welfare ranchers and their apologists can try to spin the issue any way they want, but they can't get around that.

I truly believe most ranchers don't even know what excellent rangeland looks like. They've been looking at overgrazed, poor condition land so long they think it's normal. They might be able to see slight changes from year to year, depending on moisture, but they have no idea what good or excellent rangeland looks like. And I doubt they really want to know, 'cuz then they'd have to admit how bad things are.

Until the majority of public grazing land is in at least "good" condition I'll keep using the term "welfare ranchers". Any welfare ranchers who don't like it can get off welfare.

 

[Bambistew]

I was amazed you'd make such a comment over such a simple question I'd never even think twice about answering.

I normally don't make comments like that, but your condesending tone in everything you write on here about ranchers in general gets old. I know you hate welfare ranchers but you consitenly lump them all together as do a few others. In your very first post you assumed that the the coyote culling/contest etc was a benifit (subsidy) to the welfare rancher when infact it benifits both types and game animals. You lumped all together from the get go. Thats why I was surprised that you would answer the question based on the fact that you can't mention the word 'rancher' with out bashing them in the next sentence.

I do addmit I'm no range expert, never claimed to be. I would agree with you 100% that most ranchers probably don't know what good conditions are.

I asked 3-4 simple questions more so for your oppinion. Not looking for a dissertation.

 

[Nemont]

Quote:
Hey dumb #*^@#*, you show me ONE post where I have said public lands are mine.

Moron didn't you write:

Quote:
I wish we could divide this state in half along a line running from about 1 mile East of Billings up through Havre. You guys could then have your own little State of Confusion over there.

FYI even out of state people can hunt public lands. Again show me ONE anti public lands post I have made on this or any other forum. I will save you the trouble because there isn't one. I hunt and cherish public lands

Hey did I not read this right? Or maybe it wasn't what you meant.

I meant Eastern Montana and Western Montana would be better off without each other.

Quote:
WTF does coyote hunting in Baker have to do with grazing. It was not mentioned in the article nor is it one of the issues even brought up. Your own bias shows through just as others hatred of grazers always comes out in every thread regardless of topic.

Dumb arse, it's because of the justification of the hunt that grazing is brought into the picture,


Quote:
Coyotes caused an estimated $47 million in damage to the cattle industry in 2005, according to the USDA. Sheep losses topped $10 million in 2004.

Show me the words in the above that say "grazing, grazing public lands, grazing damage, welfare rancher etc. etc.

Quote:
I don't know why God put them on this Earth," said Jerrid Geving, a hunter who organizes the Baker event. "If He put them on this world to give us sport for hunting, maybe. But I'll tell you what, they do a lot of damage to livestock."

The correlation to grazing was evident in the begining of the post. I didn't say it they did. So what about the damage sheep and cattle have done to the public range?

Again if you EVER read a post I made you would know my position on damaging public lands.


Quote:
In addition I have never chewed Copenhagen, and your caricature of Eastern Montanans is exactly the kind of BS the screams for us becoming two different states, We already are.

You wrote earilier during blackouts

[
Quote:
Most of the people in Montana who are complaining are the "fair" chase crowd that arrived here from a Coastal state, built their McMansion on prime winter elk habitat and have never traveled east of Bonner.

Quote:
No hairy legged tofu eaters in Baker

You didn't steriotype Western Montana people at all. Piss breath quit throwing shit around if you don't like getting some back in your face.

It isn't a stereotype if it is true. Have you spent anytime in public anywhere in Western Montana. Most freaks then anywhere East of the Divide. I don't care what you think of ranchers or Eastern Montanan's period. There are not hairy legged tofu eaters in Baker that is a fact, can't say the same about any town over there.

Some of the worst range conditions I saw were over close to Baker, from the air you could make out the sections of State and Blm grazed to nothing but a dirt color. The private lands however where beautifull grass covered with lots of wildlife.

So you only saw Baker from the air. Sweet and a great way to understand the area and the people. It is laughable that you say there are no big game animals on public lands around Baker. You must not have looked very hard.

Quote:
Just because you and other hate grazing doesn't make it a valid arguement in every other debate.

Again wrong, show me one time I threw out the fact I hated grazing? I hate the lands we all share to be missused by grazing, Oil, timber dev. ect. I don't
oppose any of these types of land use. Montana has long been abused.

It shows by the way you continue to bash EVERY rancher, it is guys that are so radically against grazing that continue to make it easy for the people who do abuse the range to continue to protray themselves as victims. If radicals, such as yourself and others on this board would appear to offer an reasonable front then Bad ranchers would be seen for what they are. However, I never expect any of the people who think like you to do anything other then the wild eyed, screaming and shouting like Jon Marvel. Want to bet whom Jon Tester will side with, Conrad was a slam dunk but Tester will side with ranchers because the other side of the issue will be so politically distasteful and dangerous to his future he will embrace the "family rancher", the poor downtrodden public lands rancher. All because the radicals can't figure out a way to appear to be middle of the road and reasonable.

I've wasted enough time on you.

Enough said.

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Nemont,

From the numbers...I can tell you that 30% of the ranchers do a good to excellent job of managing their federal leases.

I think the State lands in Montana are a bit better than that.

No question the private lands are even better.

See the problem?

I think you stereo-type as bad as anybody. I know plenty of shit-kickers who live in Western Montana...probably shame most of the ranchers in Baker.

As to the coyote contest...the comments made are a prime example of why stereo-types are so easy. The guy making a statement like, "what good are coyotes"...I mean really...what a tool.

I'm sure he also feels the same way about every other animal (other than his livestock) that lives in Montana.

I also have no problem with killing coyotes...I've shot a bunch of them. Matter of fact, I've even entered and won $$$ in coyote contests in MT. I like it when a hippy tofu-eater from Missoula shows the local rednecks in Chinook the proper way to kill coyotes...I almost felt guilty taking their copenhagen money...almost.

 

[Nemont]

Nemont,

From the numbers...I can tell you that 30% of the ranchers do a good to excellent job of managing their federal leases.

I think the State lands in Montana are a bit better than that.

No question the private lands are even better.

See the problem?

I think you stereo-type as bad as anybody. I know plenty of shit-kickers who live in Western Montana...probably shame most of the ranchers in Baker.

As to the coyote contest...the comments made are a prime example of why stereo-types are so easy. The guy making a statement like, "what good are coyotes"...I mean really...what a tool.

I'm sure he also feels the same way about every other animal (other than his livestock) that lives in Montana.

I also have no problem with killing coyotes...I've shot a bunch of them. Matter of fact, I've even entered and won $$$ in coyote contests in MT. I like it when a hippy tofu-eater from Missoula shows the local rednecks in Chinook the proper way to kill coyotes...I almost felt guilty taking their copenhagen money...almost.

Buzz,
Know what, I don't disagree with much of what you said. I stereotyped Straight Shooter and others on the Western side on purpose, that's a fact. I know MANY shit kickers from Drummond, Polson, Bozeman, Butte, Kalispell, etc.

Stereotypes are almost always wrong, just like using the term welfare ranchers, even though your numbers say thirty percent, is that accurate? probably not because it doesn't take into account the number of acres on each allotment and who holds the allotment. It could be 50% of the ranchers are responsible grazers but 70% of the land is controlled by the 50% who are not. See any problem with painting everybody with one brush?

Again, if the anti grazing crowd stopped foaming at the mouth, offered some political cover to the office holders, appeared to be reasonable (note you don't have to be reasonable just appear reasonable) there would be real reform. Instead they give every rancher room to run to the politicians in states like Montana and throw themselves on the mercy of that politician to "save the small rancher/famer". Also you give the people who attempt to do the right thing in regards to grazing NO REASONS to support your side. Why should I support anything someone like Straight Shooters says regarding grazing? He has no idea what the grazing on our ranch looks like nor does he care. I know that there is no room for any grazers in a group made up of people like him.

I have stated my opinions of how to fix at least part of the problem. 1. open up competitive bidding, 2. Bring AUM rates in line with State and/or private rates. 3. Terminate allotments of those grazers who continue to ignore the rules. What do I get? called a welfare rancher and told that I want to keep public lands for myself. Public lands and private lands on our ranch, all 34,000 acres are open to hunting. Maybe I should insist that I be more selfish and close the place down including landlocked public lands, I won't but after reading the thoughts of apparently the majority of people on this board give me a reason not be selfish. Since my family and I are just welfare cases.

The coyote contest organizer is an idiot but he isn't doing anything illegal, nor anything immoral, ethical may be in the eye of the beholder but again if we lose one hunting right because of this contest then there is NO HOPE of hunting continuing anyway.

Nemont

P.S. I didn't call you a tofu eater or a hippie, I respect your opinions as they are informed, wrong on grazing sometimes but informed.