CO Wolf Reintroduction efforts, from RMEF

[one ate E grain]

The reason I posted the link to find the contact info of CO state senators and reps on the third comment was because I think David Allen the Pres and CEO has about as good a handle on what's best for Elk as anyone, maybe more so. I mean he did lead a huge expansion of RMEF in not only membership but most importantly influence. I've always found his statements to be sober, and not sensational, he's not some frothing at the mouth firebrand. David Allen asked me to call my legislators so I did. I'd also assume the statement signed by Allen reflected not just his views but those of the leadership of the organisation,combined I just can't imagine a more informed bunch of people.

Aldo Leopold did more than write a collection of inspirational essays, he also wrote a hundreds of pages long book, and in it he said words to the effect that a lack of predator management is just as unscientific as those who'd exterminate all of a predator species. Right now, there are efforts in some states to curtail all predator management, until that issue gets sorted out I really can't see any benefit in expanding the range of any predator. Until wolves and other large predators are managed using methods that state divisions of wildlife think best we don't have scientific management. Ballot box biology hasn't worked out well down here with our large urban population.

A quick look through the comments on I Hunt Colorado shows just about universal negativity towards wolves in the reposts of the RMEF statement. I certainly don't follow that page carefully, and I might have missed some, but ya, not much love down here, probably as much a reflection of the decades long litigation circus as anything else.

 

[antlerradar]

sneakem, You could argue that the movement of elk from the public mountains to the private plains has been happening in Montana. I would not say that wolves are the primary reason but wolves could be partly behind the move.

 

[James Riley]

But I mean a breeding population could eventually move this far south couldn't it?

No doubt, *if* they were allowed to. However, there are poachers who kill them on site and, if caught, claim they thought it was a coyote.

A formal reintroduction is accompanied by fanfare, publicity, notice and a crowd of folks "keeping an eye" on it. Plus, it's a pack of wolves and not just a few loners linking up and maybe, just maybe, surviving to form a pack.

You are correct about the human population too. Most of those "new" folks you refer to would favor reintroduction, though, and love to see/hear wolves while they are out recreating. The only folks who object are some wolf prey hunters and livestock operators. Maybe a few pet owners worried about Rover and Mittens. But those three groups are small compared to the others, at least in CO. That's my sense of it. I could be wrong.

 

[tjones]

No doubt, *if* they were allowed to. However, there are poachers who kill them on site and, if caught, claim they thought it was a coyote.

This very rarely happens. It's mostly bar room banter. The SSS crowd usually have problems with the first and last S's.

 

[James Riley]

This very rarely happens.

The problem with a lone wolf is, it only has to happen once. I think CO has seen it.

 

[tjones]

Once won't matter and probably won't happen.

You have to understand just how rare it is to see wolves even once they are established. Even rarer to see a lone, rarer to see a shootable wolf of any type.

Guys here have spent entire season hunting just wolves and never caught a glimpse and we have no shortage. For decades we have heard the "I shot a large coyote" *wink*wink*. When checked out it usually never happened. Bar room banter isn't exclusive to Montana, Colorado won't be any different.

 

[James Riley]

Once won't matter and probably won't happen.

You have to understand just how rare it is to see wolves even once they are established. Even rarer to see a lone, rarer to see a shootable wolf of any type.

Guys here have spent entire season hunting just wolves and never caught a glimpse and we have no shortage. For decades we have heard the "I shot a large coyote" *wink*wink*. When checked out it usually never happened. Bar room banter isn't exclusive to Montana, Colorado won't be any different.

I think you are missing the context. In reference to Colorado, with no reintroduction program, commandoNate asked "But I mean a breeding population could eventually move this far south couldn't it?"

I was responding to him and making the point that SSS can indeed stop such a move. And, if I recall correctly, it may have already stopped such a move. It's a long trip from northern WY to northern CO yet apparently one or two wolves may have made it. And I believe if you check with CO P&W you will find that they have been shot.

Further, the people who do the shooting don't have to hunt them. All they have to do is be out feeding cattle, fixing fence, hunting coyotes, treating scours or any number of day to day activities that has them out there 365 days a year, including helping snow-bound cattle. They see a wolf. They shoot it. That's not some hunter who broke away from his cubicle for a weekend hunt.
Not only will once matter, it has happened and does matter.

 

[tjones]

You are missing my point. Most SSS NEVER happens. Its BS. And if it should happen one or two wolves shot will not stop the wolves from establishing if they head that way. The 9 mile pack crossed the Canada border without passports and established in Montana long before any transplant. Believe it or not there are ranches in Montana with a populations of wolves nearby and most never see them.

Your thoughts on wolves were the same as most in Montana when they first hit here. Most found out their worries and thoughts were wrong.

 

[JoseCuervo]

I think you are missing the context. In reference to Colorado, with no reintroduction program, commandoNate asked "But I mean a breeding population could eventually move this far south couldn't it?"

I was responding to him and making the point that SSS can indeed stop such a move. And, if I recall correctly, it may have already stopped such a move. It's a long trip from northern WY to northern CO yet apparently one or two wolves may have made it. And I believe if you check with CO P&W you will find that they have been of day to day activities that has them out there 365 days a year, including helping snow-bound cattle. They see a wolf. They shoot it. That's not some hunter who broke away from his cubicle for a weekend hunt.
Not only will once matter, it has happened and does matter.

Reminder: Not necessary for you to reply

 

[James Riley]

You are missing my point. Most SSS NEVER happens. Its BS. And if it should happen one or two wolves shot will not stop the wolves from establishing if they head that way. The 9 mile pack crossed the Canada border without passports and established in Montana long before any transplant. Believe it or not there are ranches in Montana with a populations of wolves nearby and most never see them.

Your thoughts on wolves were the same as most in Montana when they first hit here. Most found out their worries and thoughts were wrong.

No, I am not missing your point. Your point is not valid in Colorado. If it was, then Colorado would have had a thriving wolf population a long time ago.

I don't care if "Most" SSS never happens. I don't care if "it almost never happens." It HAS happened when they HAVE headed this way. If it had NOT happened then they would be here. They've been protected for how long now????? Where the hell are they and why aren't they viable? And before you answer that, remember they HAVE been seen hear, many years ago.

What you fail to understand is that without a program (go back and read my post that includes the CONTEXT you are missing about what comes along with a program) then one or two matter but not if they are dead.

 

[James Riley]

Reminder: Not necessary for you to reply

Reminder, you can block me.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Oh good. Wolf pandering.

Because we don't have real issues to worry about.

SMH

 

[sneakem]

sneakem, You could argue that the movement of elk from the public mountains to the private plains has been happening in Montana. I would not say that wolves are the primary reason but wolves could be partly behind the move.

Funny you mention this. Part of my Colorado conspiracy theory...lol I believe that having too many wolves will eventually force elk to group in large numbers once again seeking more open, flat country. Which here in Colorado is pretty much all private farmland. It's not unreasonable to assume so... behaviorally speaking, most ungulates have a learned behavior to group for protection, live in open country, its happened for centuries. If this were to happen.. I would expect a substantial decrease in the effect of hunter harvest, more damage from game animals to private property, conflict with wolves/ranchers etc....

Once again, I have no problem with the wolf... just a tough balance when management is taken out of the hands of the wildlife agencies/experts and given to legislature and voters who are not educated in the field of wildlife management. It'll happen, talk to any biologist that's had their recommendations thrown out the window over and over again. Happens all the time here in Colorado, the wolf will just be another to add to the list...

But then again, I'm not an expert either....

 

[tjones]

Oh good. Wolf pandering.

Because we don't have real issues to worry about.

SMH

Be nice Ben! Wolves will always be panderable,,(not sure that's a word)

 

[Ben Lamb]

Be nice Ben!

Need more coffee. Apologies for offending the special snowflakes who can't handle the competition of a dog.

 

[MTGomer]

Wolf poaching may not have been being done by the 300 pound road hunter with his crack hanging out of his mossy oak sweatpants, on his 11th bud light by noon, bellied up to Stockmans Bar, bitching about them danged Gubbermint dawgs sceerin all his elk away but it was happening.

I personally found two with bullets through them, and also found a dead bull elk with wolf tracks all over it, covered in what looked like anti-freeze. That doesn't include the many secondhand accounts of people shooting them. People that I know would actually do it.

 

[tjones]

Well there was Toby and his mini van.

 

[James Riley]

Jose has motivated me.

I will stipulate that SSS is not as widespread as some believe. I will also stipulate that once wolves are established, SSS won't have much of an impact, if it is as rare as some believe.

That said, wolves were listed on the Endangered Species Act some fifty years ago, in 1967. Since then they have returned in areas where they were re-introduced by man. Apparently they have re-introduced in some areas by themselves (9 Mile?). However, in either case they have ONLY recovered AFTER human programs were implemented to increase their odds of survival: education programs on the difference between a coyote and a wolf, and what will happen to you if you intentionally kill a wolf that isn't attacking and/or eating you or your property.

To the extent Colorado has any such programs they are nothing compared to what went on/goes on in States where real programs have been implemented. And they only arose after someone shot a wolf in Northern Colorado for whatever reason.

SSS may be rare, but again, so are lone wolves, as well as the link-up of pairs far from the place of origin. It only takes one shot. And in the last 50 years Colorado has had more than one *proven* shot and thus still has no pack.

On a separate issue, how genetically viable would a state-wide population be if it sprang from two loners who happened to link up after walking across the Red Desert from the Wind Rivers? Two loners who were probably related not to far back.